Yes, this needs to be fixed. The amount of Vertibirds I've seen crash is ridiculous. The BoS cannot maintain this rate of attrition, lol.

That's also just another game play feature that defies logic. Crops don't puff into existence when you slam seeds into the ground. The settlers would have to raise these crops on their own.

You also can't build turrets and generators out of junk.

And the game were frustrating if Vertibirds and the BoS were displayed realistically. They would drop and kill you with their Gatling lasers. And the Vertibird machine guns would penetrate most kinds of cover and instantly kill you. In the real world people don't get shot by a minigun, eat 15 cobs of corn and continue fighting.

You're just further proving my point. Thanks. They're terrified about the Institute REPLACING them with synths. If a Gen 3 walked into Diamond City yelling at the top of his lungs that he was a synth, they wouldn't shoot him on sight. Maybe treat him like he's nuts, because he woulD be.

Oh I agree, but it is the reality of the situation as presented in the game. I understand that the game has to center on the player to some extent, but I'd like to feel like factions were effective on their own. Fallout 4 seems to present a situation where none of the factions can get anything done without the player holding their hand. You see evidence of past attempts at getting stuff done, but they are almost all presented as miserable failures. BoS expeditions failed. Minutement split and shattered. Institute had their last base overrun. The player has to support a faction to make it work. At least with the Minutemen, you get to lead the faction, which gives it more of an edge over the rest. I'd argue that the BoS should be presented as mighty and disciplined, even if the player doesn't help out. The cavalry entrance was a very impressive moment. I was awed when I saw it.... only to be dissapointed later that all that might was pretty well wasted suicide bombing random small groups of raiders and super mutants.

Honestly though, all my BoS hate here is just a long running joke to poke fun at the failure of the game's NPCs to do anything impressive in game. I get immersed in the game and take cues from what's happening around me to build the character's view of the world. So my character fully believes right now that there are untrained lunatics crashing vertibirds everywhere. She was originally terrified by this prospect... particularly as she had joined the BoS (before the blimpening) under the impression they were a highly trained military force. She's quickly learned to just accept the insanity of this new world and use it to her advantage. Vertibird crashing means free armor parts! Being put in charge of the Minutemen was a surprise and seemed silly at the time as all she had done was kill a few raiders then, but she's been able to use that position to restore order to portions of the Commonwealth. Still a part of the BoS, she's decided to just leverage that as best she can before she inevitably has to betray them or more likely abandon ship as they just outright fail at something big. The Railroad is showing some potential as an ally. Synth's seem human enough... more human than raiders anyway. I'll keep playing things by how I see it in world.

But why should they mind if the BoS killed Synths?

I didn't say that? Being indifferent is not hating.

Stopped reading there, as you've basically proven OP's point. The Minutemen are completely ridiculous and unrealistic as a faction vying for dominance in the Commonwealth. Basically, Bethesda made a huge mistake by making them an option.

Logically, what do you choose to side with?

A.) An already established faction with clear ideological flaws

B.) A blank slate faction that basically didn't exist before you enter into the scene, which you can literally shape into anything you want and make as powerful as you choose as long as you're willing to invest time and effort into it. The already established factions pay absolutely no attention to the rise of this brand new superpower and are able to do nothing to stop it in true Mary Sue fashion.

Definitely not that one! BoS is too flawed this time around.

Besides, I was never arguing that the Minutemen are realistic. From my perspective, none of the factions are...so that factor can't even weigh in for my choice. As none of the A class choices are appealing, I'll take B, since it gives me a chance to build what I want. That the other factions don't respond to B's growing power is not my fault. I rather wish they would.

My point was that the whole common wealth won't team up against them, because they kill Synths.

Absolutely, logically it's a non-choice. There is no difficult decision making to be had, no weighing the pros and cons of each faction. If you're a "good guy," choose the MarySuemen ten times out of ten, since they're a blank slate. The only reason to choose other factions is for RP purposes.

Well there are supposed to be 8 endings and we've only found 5 so fingers crossed.

A lot of what you say is outright not true, to be frank.

By all means, feel free to refute what I'm saying. Minutemen win because they have plot armor, and for no other logical reason.

Very well.

Speaking to the arguments in this thread.

1. The Minutemen according to Preston Garvey broke up but many of its members returned to the fold once they were re-established.

2. You can't make turrets and stuff out of junk but in RL, people can and do melt down and make weapons as well as complex machines from recycled materials all the time.

3. 2# is a ludicrous point anyway since the Brotherhood's material is all 200 year old stuff which still functions.

4. The Minutemen only have to win two battles in the game and you just ignore their ability to do such because no circumstances will apparently helicopters and powered-armor soldiers lose despite helicopters not being an automatic, "I win" button in Vietnam or Afghanistan.

5. The local longstanding organization with much institutional respect and which does an amazing job of aiding settlements in growing as well as ACTUALLY establishing settlements apparently can't get anyone to fight for them because people will automatically refuse to fight the BoS.

6. Posters attribute poor training to the Minutemen despite no sign of them being so.

7. Posters attribute poor chain of command to them despite no sign of them being so.

8. Posters attribute poor equipment to them despite the fact they're only underequipped compared to the BoS.

9. In order to win the Minutemen have to have at least 8 settlements supporting them, which is a substantial chunk of the map as well as five Howitzers and that's a minimum for a large number of quests to restablish their position.

10. Posters completely ignore all logistical issues because apparently the Brotherhood doesn't suffer them but the Minutemen who have an actual supply chain would.

The Minutemen are depicted as having a noble goal but being flawed ordinary people aside from that. They are still a military, though, and it seems that their only major crime is they have the audacity of being able to win against a group which often gets treated like it would roll over everything when lore-wise, they don't.

They basically allowed the player to ignore the moral dilemma, by offering a choice that is only good. "You have a sack of grain you can give it to starving people or you can plant it and grow more OR you can decide to have two sacks of grain"

The Minutemen aren't forced to make any difficult decisions. The BoS had to has to decide whether they help humanity now or focus their energy on recovering old tech before it is lost what will help humanity later. But the Minutemen don't have to sacrifice the short term safety in order to focus on finding weapons and tech. The get to keep the bird in their hand and the two in the bush.

The moral dilemma of the Minutemen is essentially whether or not being a bunch of settlers living in a Confederacy of Junktowns and Wild West Boston is better than the technological tyranny of the Institute or the much-much harder but better defended Neo-Feudalist BoS.

There's no "good guy" faction in the game since everyone is working to make a better world.

The [censored] who murdered all of Vault 111 are long dead by the time Shaun takes over. The FEV Super Mutant issue is horrifying but the guy who did that is the one who became one.

1. Most of the retired Minutemen were those who refused to aid Colonel Hollis, because of internal disputes. I would count on them.

2. You can recycle stuff, but only with industry facilities. Please prove me wrong by building an electrical water pump with a radiation filter out of junk.

3. Because they maintain it.

5. That is just a game play feature, it is almost as unrealistic as healin injuries by eating food. You can plat a crop and harvest it every 24h.

6. 7. and 8. And that is stupid, they should be weak but aren't. It doesn't prove that the devs want them to have a chance not that they would have any.

10. The BoS could easily ambush their supply lines.

The Brotherhood of Steel is acting in a very intelligent manner throughout the Commonwealth actually as their first actions upon arriving in-force is to establish listening posts around the area, establish secure bases, and also a strong central location from which to operate. They also proceed to start neutralizing threats and gathering large scale ordinance as well as doing their best to increase their supply lines. In a game which you mention has severe issues with realism, the Brotherhood illustrates itself to be very intelligent.

The Brotherhood also handles its various enemies in an intelligent manner as well. They attempt to destroy the Institute, their entire purpose for being here, of course but they also don't ignore the Super Mutant threat since they have numerous bases across the Commonwealth as well as massive amounts of Pre-War ordinance. They don't limit themselves to just the Super Mutants, though, and the decision to destroy the Railroad is due to the potential for the organization to engage in covert war which would hamper their operations.

To prevent the weapons from being used against them and to arm themselves, they also acquire TWO stockpiles of nuclear weapons both personnel and actual nuclear bombs.

The "canonical" Survivor is apparently set up for the purposes of joining all four Factions before hitting the Point of No Return and betraying two. Just as the canonical Courier is aligned to House and Yes Man with an offer from Caesar's Legion before deciding to go with NCR. The Brotherhood of Steel has no reason to assume the Survivor is going to betray them as they've played very straight with him and if you DO betray the Brotherhood early, guess what, Vertibirds do launch attacks against your Settlements and they're actually more effective against you than the enemies you two face together.

In fact, if you turn against the Brotherhood or Institute, The Howizters actually come under attack in Radiant Quests and you have to defend them against Brotherhood attacks to secure them. Bethesda has often been accused of not realistically thinking through the consequneces of their actions but the Brotherhood acts in a really intelligent manner in this game. The only reason they don't attempt to take down the Howitzers (and they do if you betray them) is because they have ample reason to trust you by the point of your choice.

So I'm in a weird position as I'm actually thinking the Brotherhood is quite smart throughout this as the game sets up the main reason the SS would win is because of surprise and treason.

This would only be a dilemma if the BoS were depicted a strong and the Minutemen as weak. You said it by yourself you think the Minutemen are quite capable, so were is the dilemma. Does the wasteland appears to be slightly overwhelmed by Mutants afterwards?

But in the game it's: "freedom or one of the other two options"

Nah, the BoS is a military organization, and if the Sole Survivor joins it, then they would be on a tight leash. That's how the military works. Every second is accounted for, as is established by the dialogue of the BoS soldiers aboard the Prydwynn. There's no way they would give a brand new wastelander that just joined the Brotherhood free reign to command a local militia of farmers who resent their military incursion and who have enough ordinance to destroy their central HQ.

Edit: This is basically how the Brotherhood interacts with the minutemen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLlUgilKqms

Quite capable is not the same as "having the beginnings of a Neo-Feudalist Cyberknight Empire."

In ten, fifteen, maybe forty years the Commonwealth might become a new Massachusetts-sized NCR.

It's certainly better equipped for it than California was during the VD's time.

HOWEVER, the Brotherhood would be STABILITY NOW.

Not later, now.

Also, an immediate part of an existing kingdom in the Capital Wasteland and potentially Pitt.

Which is fitting because the Brotherhood sacrifice freedom for stability.

The Institute does the same.

The Railroad sacrifices stability for freedom.

And the Minutemen hedges the difference for less from both.

An organization adopting the trappings of feudal nobility...

Wouldn't absorb an existing military into its ranks....

By giving its leader membership in their organization...

That's your argument?

Hell, it's probably the reason why Elder Maxson bothers to give you jobs other than scrubbing toilets.

Remember a BoS-supporting Survivor has given the Brotherhood of Steel the support of the locals and local militia to make it MUCH easier for their long-term occupation. We're arguing about an anti-BoS survivor but a Pro-BoS Minuteman General is a very useful asset.

He's probably made "Duke of the Commonwealth" or whatever is underneath Elder Maxson.

The BoS/Minuteman ending basically has the Minutemen become the BoS' auxillary in the region and they're probably eventually absorbed.

If the BoS acted realistically thy wouldn't fly most of their remaining vertibirds to the place where currently all Minutemen are and hover until you shoot them down. They would either regroup drop on nuke or two mini nukes on the Howitzer at the castle.

They don't have ample reasons to trust the BoS, Preston who is "second in command" isn't shy to tell anyone including members of the BoS how much he hates them. They never talk with the Minutemen about their intentions. And there is no way the BoS would underestimate them after they destroy the institute.

You do realize that feudal nobility took painstaking steps to prevent their subjects from planting knives in their backs, right?

Yes. I have a degree in Medieval History.

And you know what, it worked.

Like almost half the time!

More often a third.