1. Well, they launch a direct assault on the Castle after the Prydwen goes down. Which is a decapitating strike on the position they're in. The battles in the game are an abstraction but there's nothing wrong with "kill all of the Minutemen in one swift go." The SS and Preston are the Minutemen's heart after all and destroying them will destroy the organization. It's not a BAD plan.

They don't win, obviously, in the game but that doesn't mean it was stupid.

2. If we're assuming a deliberate betrayal of the SS then he would launch his attacks almost simultaneously and if he didn't, then he would undoubtedly have won the BoS' trust as they think he's working for them in fighting the Institute.

The Survivor is a devious bastard that way.

I guess what I'm saying is just because they lose doesn't mean the BOS is a bunch of chumps in a Minutemen anti-BoS and anti-Institute ending.

We already have stability with the Minutemen.

And in how far does the Minutemen offer less freedom that the Railrode?

Do you want to say the Minutemen offer the most stability_per_sacrificed_freedom?

Elder Maxson, to the Sole Survivor: "Hey, we just met, and we're fighting an organization that uses robots with superhuman capabilities disguised as humans to infiltrate and sew chaos amongst its enemies. However, one of my trusted officers has told me that you, a native of this land with an implausible backstory who doesn't suffer any ailments of the wastelands, has performed above and beyond what a normal soldier should be capable of. As such, I trust you entirely, and am putting you in charge of our most mission-critical assignment and letting you keep your own personal army that happens to have enough ordinance to blast us out of the sky and is in an advantageous position to do so. We are going to be taking their crops and supplies without recompense, but I'm certain that they won't resent us under your leadership, so I feel no oversight of this militia is necessary. Also Paladin Danse will remain your superior in spite of the fact that he's been in this land for some time with minimal contact and we know that the Institute likes to replace people with Synths. No security or precautionary measures will be necessary, surely."

Paladin Danse: "Thank you, Elder. Hey, Sole Survivor, you seem to have good instincts, so in spite of being your commanding officer I am going to let you be in charge, and I won't supervise you or question anything you do even when it isn't in line with the Codex. (Later discovers he's a synth and is somehow so loyal to the Brotherhood's ideals that he orders you to kill him)"

If the game had been more realistic, it would have worked, they would have dropped mini nukes in the howitzer and their machine guns would have torn the M to pieces.

But because the game is not very realistic, it utterly failed. They attacked and lost only because the game suspends logic when its to the disfavor of the BoS.

Their attack is justified by one kind of logic and their defeat is justified by another kind of logic.

They really missed out on explaining the dilemma of artificial intelligence: How can an AI prove that it is sentient and not just a machine that is programmed to emulate human behavior, if we even we can't prove that we are sentient.

That is what gave me my first clue about the BoS's current state of weakness. I barely had to do anything for them at all and I was promoted to Knight, given power armor, and sent on critical missions. They give power armor to just anyone that can shotgun a few ferals? It didn't make sense... the best I could figure was that they were severely short staffed for strong healthy soldiers that knew their way around, but it still seemed like a silly reaction for a military organization. Not ONLY did they give me that quick promotion just after joining and power armor, but they also just let me go do what I want without oversight. At the very least I'd expect some oversight. That unpredictable outcome made me wary of dealing much more with them. I left the power armor there and went my own way for a long time.... mainly building the Minutemen and following some main plot stuff.

The Minutemen had a similar surprise in store with their whole 'Congrats! You're the new general!', but considering they were broken, their numbers miniscule, and I was their sole reason for still existing... that made more sense. 'General' in the context of like 5 Minutemen and a handful of settlers means much less than Knight in the context of the BoS.

If you listen closely, you can actually hear the sound of the plot armor shifting, even above the clank of the Brotherhood Knights patrolling the Prydwynn.

I've only read half of this thread, so forgive me if its already been covered;

I don't believe the minutemen are out of the woods after taking down the blimp, and I don't think the BoS is down and out at all. The blimp being destroyed isn't too unrealistic as the BoS wouldn't have likely paid much attention to a few random settlements having something like that. Their arrogance that they are superior would probably have had them not expect a possible attack. As for surviving the assault on Castle, that really depends on the player and if they geared-up the inhabitants and set-up proper defenses.

I certainly see a retreat happening, as they just lost their command center (including the Elder and some of the top Brotherhood), the airport (liberty prime, all the supplies, vertibirds, etc), and whatever men fell during the assault. They also now have another enemy to deal with. But here's the thing; them coming back and mopping the floor with the minutemen is variable.

Has enough time passed for the settlements to sure up enough of a defense and for the minutemen to be armed enough to handle a direct attack WITHOUT the element of surprise?

If the BoS have a new force ready in quick order, the minutemen are done for. The BoS still have vertibirds (they wouldn't have sent ALL of them the first time), they have their own artillery (as seen in Fallout 3. Or was that the Enclaves? Either way, they have it now. Plus they now know to be prepared for artillery fire). I just don't see the minutemen coming out alive. BoS has the steel from the Pitt (I think somewhere it said that its been reclaimed. And it makes sense as the blimp didn't look to be made of scavenged parts), and heavily armed and armored troops. The minutemen wouldn't realistically be able to mount much of a counter in the shortterm.

That's the catch-22 of the pro-minutemen argument. If the minutemen progress from nothing to a force formidable enough to challenge the Brotherhood directly, then how the hell did the Brotherhood fail to notice or do anything about it?

Also, how did they even manage to do it in the first place? Some have said that the old minutemen return to the fold to challenge the brotherhood, which is pretty flimsy. What the hell were they all doing before the Sole Survivor reforms the Minutemen? Sitting around secluded in caves with their thumbs up their butts? How did they manage to scrounge up the munitions, supplies, and training needed to take on Brotherhood forces in a direct firefight, and why didn't they have them the first time around (sorry, laser muskets and primitive artillery just aren't going to cut it for settlement defense)?

Mainly because the player-god is able to recover all those supplies from the wasteland and possibly even modify it to a level of technology well above what the BoS can field. Sure, it makes about as much sense as the BoS promoting a wastelander to Knight in short order, but we play with the cards we're dealt. Not much in the wasteland actually makes sense if you put much thought into it... so I just sort of accept things as they appear. It's not like this game is based on some grand literary work that we can use as canon. What happens in the game IS our canon. Until the next game references Fallout 4 events, we won't even know which of the possible outcomes becomes the true canon.

Former Minutemen

The Minutemen's issues are that they suffered a catastrophic failure in leadership following the death of their last General as well as the loss of the Castle. Then there was the massacre at Quincy which resulted in the Minutemen being extremely demoralized as they not only suffered heavy casualties but they failed in their objective. A lot of Minutemen left the organization because of this event as well as the infighting which severely damaged their credibility (at least in Preston's eyes).

As Preson explains, there's a lot of Minutemen running around the Capital but the organization has collapsed so Preston claiming to be a Minutemen is basically like a guy running around the Wild West claiming to be a member of the Confederacy. Yeah, there's nothing stopping the guy from doing so but it's a meaningless title.

The recovery of the Castle and the various actions which result in a few settlments allying with the "Minutemen" (note the quotes) serve as a rallying cry to the former members spread through the Commonwealth to come and rejoin the reformed organization. Also, it's important to note that due to the extreme hostility of the Post-Apocalyptic World, there's not exactly an absence of soldiers and well-trained survivalists. The Gunners and Talon Company are both fully-trained ARMIES which exist in the Commonwealth and Capital Wasteland.

[censored] armies but armies nonetheless.

We also see retired Minutemen like the former Quartermaster (from "Old Guns") coming out of retirement to lend their operational expertise to the reforming organization. This causes the Minutemen to be something much-much more than just an organization which the Survivor forms from scratch. To draw a comparison, it's like Luke Skywalker reforming the Jedi and discovering fifty or sixty other Jedi coming out of the woodwork to help.

The Minutemen's Ending isn't going to be Great for the Commonwealth a.k.a "The Minutemen are the Desert Rangers"

I mentioned the Minutemen are sacrificing stability for freedom and freedom for stability by being the "middle ground" extreme between the Institute/Brotherhood and Railroad. The simple fact is the Minutemen do not have the technology, the manpower, the equipment, or resources to patrol the Commonwealth the way the Brotherhood of Steel does or the Institute.

They can do a far better job of it than most organizations but they're basically the Desert Rangers from Wasteland and later fit into Fallout continuity via Seth and New Vegas. The Rangers are extremely capable individuals and have a good deal of weaponry at their disposal but in terms of their ability to project power they are in the Minor Leagues compared to the superpowers which the BoS and Institute show.

I liken it to the Independent ending of New Vegas. NCR and the Legion being driven out by the Courier has its upsides as does taking down Mister House but the simple fact is the Courier can't project nearly the same level of authority or social services which NCR can. Nor does the Courier possess the kind of technological know-how which House does (though they can compensate for that with the Big Empty's geniuses).

So, yeah, the Minutemen are the Wasteland ending. Gas mask and trenchcoat guys are great but power armor and android army would be better in terms of pure, "We are not having problems with Super Mutants ANY more."

Exactly. Literal plot armor. The Brotherhood of Steel knows its fighting a shadow organization that manipulates the surface world with robots disguised as humans, but somehow they don't have the foresight to monitor the wastes for signs of their activity.

Maxson: "Gee, a huge militia that ostensibly has nothing to do with us is suddenly stockpiling weapons/gear and undergoing intensive training since we arrived? I wonder if the shadow organization we're fighting is pulling some strings to make that happen? No, I am sure it is nothing. We should just sit here hovering in the air and fight super mutants until the Institute magically falls into our laps."

Rapid Promotion

The Rapid Promotion through the ranks of the Brotherhood of Steel is something which initially took me by surprise but it occurs to me as making perfect sense given the situation.

The Brotherhood of Steel has been defined by its xenophobia for decades but the biggest reform Elder Lyons made was that outsiders were individuals who could and should be given a chance to display their quality. They have the example of the Vault Dweller, the Lone Wanderer, and Paladin Danse (ironic) as examples of what recruited Wastelanders can do. Paladin Danse, it should be noted, is the single most loyal and dedicated Paladin in the BoS and he's a recruit from Rivet City.

People have been talking about how the Brotherhood should be more suspicious but the Lyons spent decades fighting that and Elder Maxson's one saving grace is he actually is VERY MUCH about acquiring new recruits and making them feel welcome in the BoS. Remember, he wants to annex the Commonwealth and getting as many locals to be invested in the BoS and its rule ove rthe Wasteland is important. History is full of Kings who made successful conquests by making local lords and ladies high-ranking nobility of their own kingdoms.

Is the Survivor promoted too rapidly? Perhaps. Certainly in a "Anti-BoS" ending but in a Pro-BoS ending, they're an individual who represents a real chance of bringing in all of the Minutemen's settlements into the BoS and establishing the PEACEFUL transition of the Commonwealth to BoS rule.

That's not nothing.

It's also very possible the promotions are meant to be a bribe by Maxson.

So your opinion is he should alienate a group which is perhaps your best chance for annexing the Commonwealth and make an enemy of a group which might serve as support for your anti-Raider and Super Mutant activity which is already dividing up your time tremendously?

Because in a Pro-BoS ending, you've essentially argued they should drive away the Sole Survivor on the off-chance they MIGHT be a traitor.

I'm still not seeing it. The justification for a Minutemen victory over the BoS is so convoluted that it can only happen in a world where BoS is strategically brain-dead, even solely in the context of fighting the Institute.

Drive off? No. Put immediately into a position of power and leverage where they can destroy the Brotherhood while ignoring a potential Institute threat in the form of the minutemen? Are you kidding me, m8?

There is nothing remotely convoluted about it.

The Minutemen launch a sneak attack and blow up their headquarters before the BoS launches a vengeance attack which gets repelled.

It's remarkably straight forward and only is unbelievable if you believe the BOS is omniscient and has reason to suspect treachery from local allies.

Remember, as far as they're concerned, they're LIBERATING the Commonwealth.

A sneak attack, like the one they'd be expecting from the Shadow Organization that they're fighting and apparently doing nothing to anticipate? Not likely.

Which is why during the Cold War, there was never any spies in the USA.

Because we were EXPECTING them.

On a more serious note, I actually like the game gives a lore-reason as to how the Minutemen are bale to manufacture Howitzers even if it's not a direct one. One of the Minutemen quests is to take down the Forged and the Forged have a working Steel Mill. You see the hot burning metal and machines running.

The acquisition of that is a major feather in their MM's cap.

Yeah right, if they were expecting spies then you're telling me they would do nothing to monitor the settlements for potential threats, and that the rise of the minutemen would go completely unnoticed? For [censored]'s sake, the artillery that they build are placed in within viewing distance of the Prydwynn.

This is beyond absurd at this point. You're arguing that America would have never noticed nuclear missiles in Cuba.

I imagine they did monitor those Howitzers.

Then they would ask what they were for.

Then they would probably be told by the General of the Minutemen that they're for defense against Raiders, Synths, and other creatures.

Lore-wise, I imagine the BoS would ask the Minutemen for their help in blowing up the same.

And they probably would get it.

Or are you arguing the BoS should have seized control over all of them?

Edit:

Also, how many BoS are in the Capital Wasteland? Do they ever get around to visiting any of the settlements? There's a lot of stuff to check out, threat wise.

Yes, literally this entire time I have been arguing that the Brotherhood would neutralize any potential threat to their operations as it arises, as they did with the Railroad.

Nah, they only gathered enough intel to track down the railroad while somehow failing to notice the rise of a unifying militia that is apparently strong enough to challenge them head-on if the pro-minutemen people in this thread are to be believed. Also, the sole survivor's circumstances aren't suspicious at all and he would be given enough leeway to command his own paramilitary force that could wipe them off the map without proper supervision.

I argue that would have been a catastrophically stupid decision.

Then again, I ironically think the Institute and BoS would have been excellent allies and perfect for one another if Elder Maxson wasn't such a bullheaded moron.

If you can't hold them, destroy them, and destroy their means of production. You don't leave a potential asset that can destroy your command center unaccounted for and open for seizure and use by Institute synths.

We already know that the Brotherhood is willing to slaughter farmers for their crops, after all.

No, in any head on confrontation, the Brotherhood would annihilate the Minutemen without difficulty.

It would be like the Desert Rangers versus the Western Brotherhood of Steel.

A curb stomp battle of epic proportions.

Albeit, the Railroad ending makes the BoS look like utter morons. There's no indication the Railroad had ANY problem with the Brotherhood or was even aware they were out to destroy all Synths until the BoS decided to kill them all.

When I first joined the Railroad, Deacon pointed out I was a Brother of Steel and everyone was impressed and kind of in awe.

Which, amusingly, is my rebuttal to your earlier post. The BoS makes a lot of enemies where it doesn't need them by being heavy handed.