By that same logic, power armor is weak... easily handled with armor piercing ammo... or a strong rope. There isn't much in this world that stops a 50 cal with a thickness measured less than feet..certianly nothing in a vaguely human form-factor. Along the same line, the same mini-gun turned against vertibird means no more vertibird. They're pretty slow moving craft.

And the Minutemen don't need to have infinite range artillery. When you first get it, Preston's advice is to build a network of them to gain coverage of the Commonwealth. To hit the blimp, you just need a few within range of it...easily constructed inside of a junk wooden shed that can be dismantled just before the artillery needs to be used... or constructed out in the open and used to fight mutants while the BoS continues to ignore the Minutemen until that fatal hour when Minutemen turn to drive them out of the Commonwealth in a surprise attack.

Except, of course, there are no fast moving vertibirds. They are slow and flimsy. I'd say they should try for high altitude fat man bombing runs...they'd still suffer heavy losses though, which they can't replace, and the castle is just one of many settlements. Even if they nuke it, the Minutemen are still strong. To win, the BoS would have to nuke all of the Commonwealth, and they have a hard enough time getting vertibirds past bandits with pipe rifles... it wouldn't end well for them.

Well, why the Minutemen have weapons capable of fighting the Brotherhood of Steel isn't that hard to explain as the Post-Apocalypse world is one where you're either heavily armed or dying and if you're building an army of soldiers to defend the Settlements you need them to be heavily armed. The Pre-War America was a fascist state ruled by the Enclave with massive amounts of nuclear armaments and military hardware which is still not completely picked over 215 years later.

We know where the Minutemen got all of their weapons because we open the armory itself. As for their ability to produce missile launchers and turrets from junk, the people of the Wasteland have known how to construct things from scavenged materials for 215 years so they're very-very good at that. It's sort of their thing. It's a Scavenger society.

The Vertibirds, of course, are treated as being very very weak but the BoS Paladin Armor is very high-powered in the game. I think that should weigh in during any discussions because they're NOT underpowered, they're probably the best representations of Power Armor in the Fallout series and it's true potential. Even so with the Vertibirds, assuming they're "just" nuclear-powered helicopters, I remind you that there's many weapons in the game which are the kind used to shoot down Helicopters in RL. There's even a missile launcher on the desk of the Castle when you first go do the "Old Guns" plot.

The Vertibirds are also not able to dodge that well because they're converging ON the Castle.

In fact, military stratedgy would be to AVOID attacking with Vertibirds and deploy the troopers out of range of their anti-aircraft defenses to take those down BEFORE launching a Vertibird assault.

Which is what the BOS will do if you attack. They target the generators to knock out your weapons.

That the Vertibirds are slow also defies all logic.

I keep telling you that it defies all logic that Vertibirds are slow and weak.

Well, there's some extrapolation going on.

For example, you can cross the entire state of Massachusetts in a couple of minutes in a Vertibird, which is actually pretty damn fast.

So when you shoot them you apply the logic of the real world, but when they shot you with Gatling guns and high caliber machine guns you suspend all real world logic. How convenient.

You can also cross the entire of Massachusetts in about twice that time by foot.

Both sides have them, though, so I have no problem with either.

Yeah, as you say, there's some gameplay and story segregation.

I just don't think lore wise it's the Brotherhood being vulnerable to the Minutemen if they're prepared.

But the problem is: When the Minutemen use Gatling guns you argue that Gatling guns would pierce power armor and when the BoS uses Gatling guns you see no problem with armor piercing rounds being stopped by wooden planks.

You always choose the logic that is most beneficial for the Minutemen.

If we're holding the game to real-world standards, we need to take out ghouls, mutants, advanced AI, and practically everything that makes the game fun. Slow vertibirds are stylistic choice. If we aren't playing by the rules of the game, what rules should we consider all this by? If we go with everything has to meet real-world logic, then somebody is going to start putting mini-nukes into those peeper drones and swarm an opposing faction.

BoS is a faction that exists with a fictional set of rules defined by the game. It only exists there. It follows those rules, which strongly favor the Minutemen if the player lends them enough support.

I was parodying your 'one shot kills' logic with that idea. We're playing by Fallout rules. People can shrug off head shots if they're tough enough. Power armor is made from magic metal that can stop the brunt of the damage of 50 cal rounds.... so is heavy combat armor. Power armor is pretty nice, and the BoS have a fair amount of it. Sadly for them, it tends not to survive vertibird crashes.

The way I see it:

Brotherhood of Steel

Pros

* Superior training
* Power Armor
* Vertibirds
* Superior laser-based personal weaponry
* Superior combat experience
* Superior mobility in Vertibirds

Cons

* Devastated numbers due to Prydwen/airport destruction and losses against Super Mutants, Raiders, Synths and other forces.
* Devastated morale due to the death of Elder Maxson
* Unfamiliarity with terrain
* Distrust of the locals (a.k.a "We're all going to die!")
* Logistical lack of logistical support (Fusion Cores, Food, Ammunition, Reinforcements)

* No home base

* Complete lack of stealth given their equipment.

The Minutemen

Pros

* Fortified position and home base
* Superior numbers
* Sole Survivor and Companions
* Superior morale
* Better knowledge of the land
* Support of the locals
* Logistical support (Food, Ammunition, Reinforcements, Fusion Cores)
* Artillery
* Superior stationary laser and missile based weaponry. This includes anti-aircraft and anti-power-armor capable positions for defending settlements.
* Superior stealth capability

Cons

* Almost no decent armor whatsoever, let alone power armor.
* Inferior training.
* No access to air support.
* No access to air transport.
* History of political infighting
* Lack of experience for young members, experienced members too old.

* Inferior laser-based weapons (Laser Muskets are effectively knock-offs of Pre-War material)

* The Castle is one big ass target

Wild Cards

* The Capital Wasteland
* Ghouls
* Synths
* Railroad
* Raiders (who may engage either)

* Super Mutants (who may engage either)

Advanced AI, Mutants and ghouls don't defy all logic, especially not super mutants. Ghouls don't make much sense when think about it, but that all. It's mostly coherent if you are careful when mixing it real world logic.

The actual problem is that You and the game constantly switch between two mindsets: When I ask you why a Vertibird would attack a raider with a mighty pipe rifle, you argue that an attack helicopter should be able to defeat a few raiders. But when I ask the Vertibird is shot down, you argue that Vertibirds clunky and their machine guns ineffective.

Personally, for me, I don't think Vertibirds should be able to be shot down by anything less than a Super Mutant chaingun, gatlin laser, or rocket launcher.

Also turrets.

But speaking of which, I'd like to bring up another RIDICULOUS thing.

The frigging RAIDERS have Power Armor but the Minutemen don't?

Brotherhood of Steel

Pros

* Good supply of basic T-60 power armor
* Superior mobility in Vertibirds

* Strong reputation that instills fear, particularly after the grand entrance

* Constrols a stockpile of mininukes

Cons

* Vertibird design flaws cause high mortality rates among fielded troops
* Devastated morale due to said mortality rates
* Unfamiliarity with terrain and local politics
* Must steal food from locals

* Each soldier is required to purchase their own supplies and equipment from a stingy quartermaster

* Racist leaders prevent ghouls and synths from joining

The Minutemen

Pros

* Several strongholds (4 for me!)

* Dozens of settlements supporting their cause (lost count)

* Upgraded T-60 power armor in a limited, but growing supply

* Heavy laser, machine gun, and rocket turret defenses

* Superior firepower (guass rifles, 50 cal snipers, quad rocket launchers, plasma rifles)

* Superior personal armor
* Superior numbers
* Artillery support

* Support of the Railroad

* Synths and ghouls welcome within ranks..and maybe the odd super mutant

* Constrols a steel factory

Cons

* Air mobility limited to short jetpack bursts

* Relies entirely on player support

I'm going to surprise everyone by saying that if the BoS still has access to either nuclear stockpile they acquire in the games, there's no chance at all for victory by the Minutemen.

Of course, both were likely transported to the Prydwen and airport.

So...

Of course, if I were trying to destroy the Brotherhood, I'd launch old cars at them with a catapult and then shoot them.

Raider have occasionally one power armor. And raiders have a far better business model than the Minutemen. Instead of just taking the few resource the settlers don't mind to spare, they simply take everything they got.

Tell me, if it weren't for the player would raiders ever get their comeuppance?

Well, that's sort of why the Minutemen existed in the first place.

Also, the BoS and Minutemen both get into pretty decent fights with them. I've seen patrolling Minutemen wipe out whole gangs of them.

If you visit the mini-nuke stockpike afterwards, I'll bet the cases are still there! I think they just leave it there under guard or something. I'd assume that the full-sized nukes could only go off if armed, unlike the mini-nukes...so worst case, the Prydwen and airport get more destroyed in the surprise attack, leaving a new crater and a lot of radioactivity debris.

Now.. if the BoS decided to nuke the entire Commonwealth, I suppose that would prevent a Minutemen victory, but I wouldn't really count that as a win either for the BoS, considering they would have lost any chance at stopping the Institute, which is their primary mission. Presumably the leaders are smart enough not to sacrifice their primary mission to screw over the Minutemen, but I'm not sure I have that much faith in them. If they were smart, they'd churn up their leadership a bit and accept a bit of compromise instead of forcing me to destroy them. In any case, I'll continue riding along my current path... which seems to be a Minutemen + Railroad blowing up the BoS and Institute path.

At least two ex-Minutemen you can find in-game do have power armor. And, of course, you can give them as much power armor as you can get a hold of. I'm up to 13 suits so far and I haven't even turned to pickpocketing yet. Power armor isn't exactly a scarce resource in the Commonwealth.

Just tell how likely was it that no settler or Minutemen tells the BoS that you want to attack them, that Maxson is on board of the airship when it is attacked, that the remaining knights attack the castle and that you survive this attack?

And then multiply it. Is the result greater than 75%?

Destroying the institute would be quite easy if they nuked the entire commonwealth: Everything that still moves it either a robot or a mutant.

1. Almost 100%. Preston would be the only one you'd tell before the attack unless you turned the BOS against you beforehand, in which case they launch attacks against your settlements.

2. Maxson never leaves the airship except to confront Paladin Danse, his SECOND IN COMMAND and Sentinel when he's gone rogue. So 99%?

3. Almost 100% since there's no way a group as high bound and worshipful of their leader is not going to try to avenge Elder Maxson's death and the deaths of so many of their brothers.

4. Do we count reloading?

Except the institute is... you know.. underground and can teleport. There are plenty of ghouls, mutants, and robots around... and sure, if the synths teleported out into the open in broad daylight to do something, they'd get noticed, but likely they'd just continue doing what they're doing...stealthfully replacing humans with synths, including BoS members! If the BoS are the only humans around, they become the only targets for replacement. The Institute is seemingly a faction designed for the ground up to be immune to brute force, which is the BoS's only weapon in its current incarnation.

Don't get me wrong I love the BoS as a whole and in the past they were portrayed in much the way you're giving them credit for. That just isn't what we're dealing with here though. I really don't like the BoS current 'big and stupid' portrayal... but it is what it is. It does make the later decisions easier for me, so that's nice I guess. I'd have a hard time choosing between say Lyon's BoS and The Railroad. Hopefully a DLC will inject a path to fix the BoS.

By the by, I'm probably spending way more time attacking the BoS than is proper... although, if I can mock the vertibirds being taken down by pipe rifles more, it's probably worth it. It's so absurd that I'll likely come back in a later playthrough and mod the vertibirds/pilots to be much tougher so I can join the BoS for a proper BoS oriented playthrough without feeling like the wastes are wiping the floor with my faction.

1. Why don't you tell them about that don't you trust them? And wouldn't they be distrusting you told them to attack the BoS, without ever telling them that the BoS is their enemy? They might think that the institutes tries to start a war between the BoS and the Minutemen. If I were the institute I would replace the Minutemen radio man and tell every to attack the Brotherhood.

2. it's perfectly possible that he pays the air port a visit every now and then.

3. Then why did the Outcasts happen?

4. Yes, every reloading is an alternative universe where the BoS wins.

Since the Institute does not simply teleport an armed nukes next to the Prydwen, they can only teleport in a certain radius.

That the BoS are the only humans that can be replaced doesn't mean that they can replace them. The institute kidnaps civilians from their homes, infiltrating a military base and escaping while caring an unconscious person without being seen is almost impossible.