Resumed from where the previous thread left off.

I only read the OP, but I disagree about them being unrealistic or weak. Their numbers grow with each settlement and they represent the unified Commonwealth. Taking their side in the MQ means that the Sole Survivor wants Commonwealth independent but for whichever reason doesn't want to support the Railroad for some reason (maybe he disliked Synths).

As far as warring against BoS goes, Minutemen will win as long as Maxon is defeated. They may have superior tech, but if Prydwn is done for, they lack numbers and leadership and just like their western brethren, they won't be able to hold long against superior numbers. Eventually, they will have to pack their bags and return to Washington... and hope they get another leader like Maxon lest they crumble for good this time.

Still, I think Minutemen are better off with Sole Survivor allying with another faction. Why be alone when you can have an ally in the Railroad, BoS or the Institute?

I also point out the Minutemen have a steel mill if you do their quest line. A FUNCTIONING steel mill (hello, The Pitt) which is being used by the Forged to make their own weapons and armor.

It explains in-lore why they were able to make Howitzers at least.

I still have yet to see the minutemen using howitzers at all.

They have mortars, not howitzers.

Wait, you get that steel mill working?

I think the Minutemen can become a very viable faction, and the Brotherhood has forgotten that Balloons get popped easily and can be seen by Opponents for Miles around.

The Brotherhood have returned to being Power Armor wearing Scavengers, and should be treated like every other detriment to Society in the Wasteland.

That's the best part, it's already working. Hence all of the glowing metal and machine noises.

While the gameplay shows the Minutemen as facing ground forces, if the Sole Survivor REALLY wanted to be able to defeat the Brotherhood of Steel, they should have built missile launcher turrets.

If the Minutemen have micro-SAM sites then that pretty much ends the Brotherhood's major threat.

At least regarding an attack on the Castle. The Vertibirds would be screwed unless the BoS could destroy them before they attacked.

Can do! Considering the sheer number of settlement sights scattered around that can be covered in missile turrets, the Commonwealth could easily become a no-fly zone. Of course, when it comes to vertibirds, I think a pipe pistol turret would be enough.

Well. I know it was already working since I've cleared the place. I just didn't knew that there's another quest for it where the Minuteman takes control of it.

Just place around 30+ sentry turrets to make it a no-fly zone. I've done this at the Castle and I made the Castle a no-fly zone during the fight with BoS.

1. You can arm the Minutemen however you like in the game but the Minutemen are not limited to the basic turret guns or Laser turrets (which are basically BoS Gatling Guns, I remind you). They can also build Missile Turrets which are more or less Micro-SAM sites and built counteract EXACTLY what the BoS' Vertibird advantage would provide them with. In a realistic sense, the Castle would be annihilated by the BOS without those SAM sites but in a realistic sense, the Minutemen would probably build them if they were expecting to against the BoS.

They can also build EVEN BIGGER things than Laser Turrets and Missile sites.

2. The Minutemen will have access to a functioning steel mill if you complete the Forged quest, which explains how they could manufacture stuff which is of a level on Pre-War WW2 or higher level tech if nothing else. Ashur, certainly, felt a functioning steel mill was worth betraying the Brotherhood of Steel over.

3. The choice not to participate in the Battle of Quincy is exactly the same choice as the Brotherhood Outcasts made. They did not recognize the authority of the Colonel anymore than the Outcasts recognized the authority of Elder Lyons. Likewise, the Mojave Chapter had its own major in-fighting over Father Elijah and MacNamarra and Hardin. The history of Elder Maxson also states that he was an appointment by the Western Brotherhood of Steel which means that he's an outsider put in charge of the liberals.

The fact is, during the Super Mutant War with the EBoS, the Outcasts abandoned their brothers to die.

4. The decision to try and take the Howitzers by the BoS is done IN-GAME if you turn the Brotherhood of Steel hostile to your faction. There's missions to defend the Howitzers against the BoS if you turn them hostile just like there's mission to defend the Settlers against attackers. So, I think your argument doesn't hold water as the BoS DOES do what you say but gets fought off unless you attack them covertly.

5. The BOS can be defeated simultaneously with the Institute in the Hyrbid Railroad/Minutemen ending or even BEFORE the Institute I remind you.

Where do they have Howitzers?

They use mortars.

Let's judge for ourselves.

http://www.gamersheroes.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/How-To-unlock-Artillery-and-Artillery-Strikes-In-Fallout-41.jpg

But yes, I basically view the Minutemen as the Desert Ranger faction of the game but we don't actually get a sense they're quite that badass. They don't have the iconic look in quite the same way as NCR's Gas Mask Troopers did and we don't get to build the Minutemen up the way we would like. For example, I would have loved to have been able to outfit them all with Combat Armor and better weapons for example.

However, the biggest benefit the Minutemen have is they're very good engineers or have them in their service because the Settlement system is based around building up their stores of food, weapons, and defense. This might actually explain why you're supposed to have more Defense than all of your Food and Water combined as the Minutemen place such an excessive focus on defense for their settlements.

What's really interesting is the long term effects of the Sole Survivor having the Minutemen become intimately involved with settlements, defense, and building them up. As a result, they're basically forming a government rather than a faction and a military dictatorship not that dissimilar to the Brotherhood of Steel.

Or, as mentioned, Desert Rangers.

1. That you can find and craft enough weapons to prepare the Minutemen for a fight against the BoS defies all logic. It's only possible for game play reasons.

2. The steel mill isn't in your control you just kill everyone there.

3. It is not the same. The outcast just left and the rest of the BoS was fine afterwards. The Minutemen not only abandoned the colonel, but also Preston and the people in Quincy, when they needed them.

The Outcasts decided to do something else, the Minutemen just decided to do nothing.

4.That's not how that works. The BoS could conquer settlements before the player or the Minutemen. That attackers wait for you to arrive, is also a game mechanism that doesn't make sense.

5. The BoS is known to be paranoid, and they fight an enemy who can replace people with robots, that should make them even more paranoid.

1. The Brotherhood is a small nation built out of the ruins of the Capital Wasteland which has an expeditionary military force brought in by the Prydwen and Vertibirds. There's no sign of any vehicles or a ground march of an army. You are also making the Brotherhood out to be a laughable bunch of Gary Stus when they were hard pressed in the war against the Super Mutants in the Capital Wasteland, only won against the Enclave because of Liberty Prime and the Tesla cannon (as well as redirecting the Enclave's own weapons against them), and were smacked around by NCR. They're great soldiers with awesome toys but they're not supermen, just trained soldiers with tank-like transports.

2. It's right next to the settlement which is yours.

3. The Outcasts are actually infinitely worse but it's not just the Outcasts. The infighting in the Brotherhood results in them casting aside their single greatest warrior (Danse) and losing his tactical expertise over a point of the Codex.

4. The Brotherhood ending has the Prydwen destroyed and the survivors launching an attack against the Castle. After that, there's probably no more Brotherhood in the Commonwealth. There's perhaps a few hundred knights total in this war, not thousands and most of them probably died in the Prydwen and the resulting crash into the airport.

5. The Eastern Brotherhood of Steel is also built around the idea of incorporating Outsiders into its ranks to strengthen their organization. Doctor Li, I remind you, who WORKED FOR THE INSTITUTE is put in charge of the Liberty Prime project.

Explain that if they're paranoid lunatics.

1. NCR wins because they are a real nation with a real military.

2. Do you see any settlers there?

3. No, the Minutemen were far worse, The rest of the BoS was still fine after the outcast left. The Minutemen abandoned them when they needed them.

The Minutemen had the obligation to help the people of the of commonwealth. The Outcast never assume an obligation to help the people of the capital wastelands.

And the betrayal of the QM happened two weeks before the player meets Preston.

4. One or two Vertibirds with three to six knights should still be able to occupy a settlement and use it's howitzer against the Castle, before the player or any Minutemen could arrive.

5. They interrogated her first, probably check that she isn't a robot and keep her on a short leash.

Those things don't have infinite range. It would be wasteful to overlap your range so much that they could hit each other. A smart Minutemen leader overlaps range just enough to get 100% coverage. Besides, if the BoS takes a vertibird, they can't even occupy three raiders armed with pipe guns withotu getting blown out of the sky. I doubt they'd be occupying anything that has rocket and heavy laser turrets. You might as well wax poetic about the superiority of the red coats, for all the good it did them. Besides... rumor has it, the Minutemen are arming up with gauss rifles now. You know what we call BoS Knights after that? Paper people.

Oh, when they attack the airship the Howitzers have infinite range, but when the BoS capture one they don't how convenient.

For the tenths time, that Vertibirds and Knights in power armor are so weak doesn't make sense. They are only weak, so they player feels powerful when he fights them or helps them. It wouldn't be fun if one shot from their Vertibird mini guns would kill you. A real mini gun could kill you with one shot.

It doesn't matter if they're weak or strong because the Minutemen have access to weapons capable of piercing their armor and a whole armory full of them. We have artillery, laser turrents, rifles, mines, and more as well as the ability to construct plenty more of those.

Also, I remind you, the Brotherhood Armor is stronger than it has EVER BEEN in Fallout. It's back to Fallout 1 levels, which was ridiculously broken.

So your point is nonsensical.

Oh yes and the Brotherhood will seize the Howitzers. Which they COULD have done but chose to attack the Castle instead. Which was not a bad plan.

You're basically arguing from hindsight with them.

That's not even necessary. A sustained bombing campaign by Brotherhood aerial forces could pulverize the Castle to dust before the Minutement could mount even a remotely successful defense. Non-seeking missile and laser turrets would do nothing against a fast moving vertibird target flying well above ground engagement range for a quick hit and run bombing strike.

Unfortunately, the Brotherhood pilots seemed to have graduated from the Fallout 3 Enclave school of verti pilots. In which "hovering slowly in font of an enemy target within small arms range while trying to engage ground targets and exposing your aircraft" is apparently a valid tactic.

The main problem for the Brotherhood with regards to the Minutemen is not the minutemen arsenal, its support of the local populace. The minutemen have the capability to wage a long guerilla war. Unless the Brotherhood can squash them quickly.

The Missile Launchers are computer operated. Their tracking systems are going to be nightmarishly effective--not to mention the BoS has to approach the castle in them to attack.

Also, Vertibirds are troop transports not assault vehicles, though the BoS is using them as gunships.

But that you have these weapons defies all logic.

It's not their fault that the rules of the game are against them.

When You consider, whether their attack was a bad plan or not, You look at how they should have been display in the game (well armed and trained soldiers with air superiority), but when you justify, how their attack turned out, You look at how their are actually displayed in the game (weak chumps, who get killed by pipe rifles)

So when You justify the victory of the Minutemen you always pick the reality that is the most suitable for you.

Unless the missiles are some sort of smart projectile variant, the computer can attempt to predict the path of the bird all it wants, but once the payload is free, the missile is unable to change course. And any aerial force worth its salt would be monitoring for ground launches, to adjust for evasive maneuvers. Its possible to take them down, but not easy if the vertis are keeping high and fast, and not hovering like idiots.

Its a multi-purpose aircraft. But the important point is that it has the capability to run carpet bombing operations, which we see in Fallout 3.