The "Mod Mentality" : V - Skyrim

» Tue May 17, 2011 4:38 am

I wish I could enjoy mods more. Maybe it's because I'm from a gaming era when they weren't so readily available (i.e. before Morrowind), but it never really felt like mods, even good mods, were able to successfully make up for a game's flaws. For me, being able to use a mod to fix a feature I don't like is like being able to shoot my own scene to fix a problem with a movie I don't like. Sure, I can hire the actors, film the scene, edit it in, and have a movie that better suits my tastes, but there's still something missing in the end product.

For a lot of people, though, mods are like having the tools to make your own movie, and this is their real benefit. Modding should be a tool for user creativity, not "fixing" the game Bethesda makes.

(Oh, and also fixing bugs. Fixing bugs is good.)

» Tue May 17, 2011 12:21 am

PC gamers are spoiled. They complain over things they can fix. In the end, they have nothing to complain about since the issues can be dealt with.

Not everything can be dealt with by mods. And mods take their own toll in the game. They can cause reduced framerates, loading times, and, if you have mistakes in the load order, can have quite a few crashes.

» Tue May 17, 2011 5:18 am

Most of my mods were for unoffical patches. I think the gaming industry are so sick at the moment of poor coding/buggy games that reviewers will directly comment on a poor gaming experience if it has bugs. being pretty no longer cuts it when getting a good review where as 5 years ago if it looked pretty it got a good review.
However I am only running 1 mod for new vegas and it is not a patch. I think Oblivion should have been patched more.

There is no such thing as a good review that only judges based on visuals. That is a terrible way to "review" games. Reviewers should comment on bugs, gameplay issues, design flaws etc. that's their job.

» Tue May 17, 2011 8:30 am

Thank you for saying this.

Its going to be awhile for me to acquire a PC, and I agree the actual vanilla product should be playable with plenty of options.

» Tue May 17, 2011 7:23 am

Too proud to admit that I have a point?

What point, that PC gamers get what they want and they're "spoiled"? is that a bad thing? Hell I only have a 360 and i wish i were "spoiled" as you put it.

» Tue May 17, 2011 7:40 am

Most of the suggestions aren't needed for a good game. Mods can take care of all the silly little way-too-specific things people want in the game. People always expect WAY too much. We are fortunate that TES games are so moddable.

Personally my theory is that modding is a double edged sword. It's great that others and I can make mods and some people make them for the community as a whole but being able to add things into the game in hindsight of the developers work makes people feel entitled to more and more content that is way beyond the scope of time they have for development.

» Tue May 17, 2011 6:45 am

Too proud to admit that I have a point?

You didn't even managed to reply to my 6 year old architecture comment, because there is no rebuttal. All consoles are built on practically ancient technology, and consistently, and always have, held back the speed at which graphics advance on games. Did you know that Crysis 2 actually was made to have slightly WORSE graphics than Crysis? Because consoles couldn't handle the game, let alone most PCs of the time. My PC can run Crysis at 60+ FPS, but I'm sure the 360 (perhaps the PS3 could) couldn't run Crysis without some rather harsh graphical cuts.

In addition, PC gamers who mod have to deal with a whole SLEW of crap to trudge through. .INI editing, load order modification, various platforms needed (such as script extenders or graphics extenders) that must be simultaneously ran, bugs that arise from mods, RAM being demolished by mods stacking up and eating memory, and all sorts of stuff. It isn't simple, it isn't easy, and it takes work, dedication, and a love of the game. To call PC gamers selfish is to deny all of this hard work and dedication that thousands of long time fans pour into the PC versions of these games. Even Daggerfall has folks (such as the DaggerXL platform) that are fully dedicated.

» Tue May 17, 2011 10:21 am

The way I see it, even having the ability to mod the game is enough for me to consider a game "worth it". There are so many games that have interesting premises, that are mangled because of poor execution on the developers part. Hell, it makes less sense to NOT release a mod kit of some kind with games now. You either have a success or a failure based on what is released, but if you allow the community to openly change the game and support them in this endeavor, then your game could turn from mediocre to at the very least good. Bethesda always makes at least good games, but they excel at allowing us (PC users) to mod the game to our liking, and improve it as we see fit. Bethesda admits to using mods and ideas by the community in their games, and this only reinforces my belief that modding is great for games and that Bethesda is good at making games.

Bethesda could release a game with nothing in it, so long as they released a construction set and I'd probably still buy it. The day Bethesda stops supporting modders is the day I stop supporting Bethesda.

» Tue May 17, 2011 3:53 pm

So..ultimately you have an issue with people casting their opinions, because that is really the crux of thier voice, if it isnt in game it will be modded in. how is this an issue? really? whats the point of this thread? to complain? Have such little fate in the Devs of TES that they wouldnt floor you as is? do you not enjoy what you see in regards to information? I mean really even in the latest blog regarding Combat the speaker talked about how MODS influenced improvements that are present in Skyrim.

Remember Opinions, don't make this an issue and divide the forums even further........

» Tue May 17, 2011 12:23 pm

PC gamers are spoiled. They complain over things they can fix. In the end, they have nothing to complain about since the issues can be dealt with.

Complaints that are legitimate are just fine because why should something be left to be flawed just because they can fix it with a mod? I mean, I don't want to have to go out of my way to make a mod to fix something that is horribly flawed. I'm not saying anything is flawed but it's just an example.

» Tue May 17, 2011 1:56 pm

Not everything can be dealt with by mods. And mods take their own toll in the game. They can cause reduced framerates, loading times, and, if you have mistakes in the load order, can have quite a few crashes.

Yeah, but assuming the modder knows what he/she is doing, have the tools, and have the PC to handle it, that would still mean they could essentially "fix" the game with no problems? Or is that asumption a little too naive of me?

What point, that PC gamers get what they want and they're "spoiled"? is that a bad thing? Hell I only have a 360 and i wish i were "spoiled" as you put it.

Well, what can I say? I obviously have a different view of what "spoiled" is than what you have then.

» Tue May 17, 2011 9:36 am

So I've been spending some time on this forum reading occasional threads mostly lurking. What I've seemed to notice in any discussion of features to be/wish or suggested to be in Skyrim, the bulk majority of post have "If not there are mods" in them.

While mods are a great thing and certainly should be put in and not taken for granted I am somewhat disappointed at this attitude. However I think that mods should be more for preference or additional content. No mods should be necessary to fix a poor game play mechanic or simple laziness. Should you as the consumer not demand a good product? I don't know about you but I certainly don't buy games for a DIY project. I also don't want to wait for mods to come around for it to be playable. Or what if someone plays on PS3 or Xbox 360? Mods can't save them.

No I am not saying that this game is going to turn out terrible and only mods can save it, I do not expect that. However my question is, at what point will you draw the line? Honestly, why should we the consumers allow Bethesda to even get the notion in their head that they can simply release something and if we don't like it fix it our self's (not to imply that this is the way it is but with things like PC UI on Oblivion and Fallout 3 considering it was a know issue hardly fixed in Fallout 3 it seems to be the attitude that Bethesda is acquiring). Would you continue to buy TES games if they became of low quality but you knew the mod community support is strong?

Unfortunately no one will know if this is truly an issue until the game actually releases. I personally will buy the game day one because Bethesda still has a good track record but this is an issue that concerns me.

I totaly agree that and when they do it and it is not moded it is voice acted and we get the info without it skiped and it is much less bugy anyway. But yes I want a game so good It does not need mods but I would get them anyway for sheere awsomeness!

» Tue May 17, 2011 1:26 pm

You didn't even managed to reply to my 6 year old architecture comment, because there is no rebuttal. All consoles are built on practically ancient technology, and consistently, and always have, held back the speed at which graphics advance on games. Did you know that Crysis 2 actually was made to have slightly WORSE graphics than Crysis? Because consoles couldn't handle the game, let alone most PCs of the time. My PC can run Crysis at 60+ FPS, but I'm sure the 360 (perhaps the PS3 could) couldn't run Crysis without some rather harsh graphical cuts.

In addition, PC gamers who mod have to deal with a whole SLEW of crap to trudge through. .INI editing, load order modification, various platforms needed (such as script extenders or graphics extenders) that must be simultaneously ran, bugs that arise from mods, RAM being demolished by mods stacking up and eating memory, and all sorts of stuff. It isn't simple, it isn't easy, and it takes work, dedication, and a love of the game. To call PC gamers selfish is to deny all of this hard work and dedication that thousands of long time fans pour into the PC versions of these games. Even Daggerfall has folks (such as the DaggerXL platform) that are fully dedicated.

Hm... I would really enjoy something that had all the properties of a desktop computer, but functioned as a gaming console... price tag would be around 700 dollars though i imagine maybe more.

Perhaps the next generation.

» Tue May 17, 2011 2:30 pm

You didn't even managed to reply to my 6 year old architecture comment, because there is no rebuttal. All consoles are built on practically ancient technology, and consistently, and always have, held back the speed at which graphics advance on games. Did you know that Crysis 2 actually was made to have slightly WORSE graphics than Crysis? Because consoles couldn't handle the game, let alone most PCs of the time. My PC can run Crysis at 60+ FPS, but I'm sure the 360 (perhaps the PS3 could) couldn't run Crysis without some rather harsh graphical cuts.

In addition, PC gamers who mod have to deal with a whole SLEW of crap to trudge through. .INI editing, load order modification, various platforms needed (such as script extenders or graphics extenders) that must be simultaneously ran, bugs that arise from mods, RAM being demolished by mods stacking up and eating memory, and all sorts of stuff. It isn't simple, it isn't easy, and it takes work, dedication, and a love of the game. To call PC gamers selfish is to deny all of this hard work and dedication that thousands of long time fans pour into the PC versions of these games. Even Daggerfall has folks (such as the DaggerXL platform) that are fully dedicated.

I have to agree here, most people who are not modders don't seem to understand just how much work goes into using mods, let alone creating them. It's not as simple as downloading mods and just using them, they need to be installed properly, loaded in the right order and quite often edited to work with other mods unless a compatability patch exists. If you do not do this, then you are almost guaranteed to make the game unplayable. Using and making mods takes hard work, dedication, research and passion.

» Tue May 17, 2011 10:11 am

Hm... I would really enjoy something that had all the properties of a desktop computer, but functioned as a gaming console... price tag would be around 700 dollars though i imagine maybe more.

Perhaps the next generation.

You have to wait next generation for a PC?....thats exactly what your asking for..you do know consoles are just Specialized PC's ment to play games right?

» Tue May 17, 2011 6:14 am

Well, what can I say? I obviously have a different view of what "spoiled" is than what you have then.

Yeah, and by your view the fact that PC's can have better graphics makes them spoiled too right? and computer's should only have the graphic capabilities of current-gen consoles... Thats just stupid. If you could have mods you would use them too.

» Tue May 17, 2011 12:02 am

Hm... I would really enjoy something that had all the properties of a desktop computer, but functioned as a gaming console... price tag would be around 700 dollars though i imagine maybe more.

Perhaps the next generation.

Er, they have that. It's called a PC. You can't really have a "console that's also a computer" because they already are. The thing that separates them is the openness of PC software and hardware. If they release an Xbox with "upgrade slots" (anyone remember the N64 memory pack?) they might as well just tell everyone to buy a PC, because that's basically all you'd get. Hell, there's almost no reason to get a console over a PC anymore (besides a few exclusives and the relatively low introductory price).

» Tue May 17, 2011 2:00 pm

Hm... I would really enjoy something that had all the properties of a desktop computer, but functioned as a gaming console... price tag would be around 700 dollars though i imagine maybe more.

Perhaps the next generation.

Well I run a side business where I build computers for people. I could make a desktop that can run mid-high details on any game for 700 dollars for people. Just haven't really got enough equity to expand my custom computer business to the internet hehe. Of course, that's 700 dollars without a monitor, which you can just plug the tower into your tv and it will be a "console"

» Tue May 17, 2011 12:10 pm

Er, they have that. It's called a PC. You can't really have a "console that's also a computer" because they already are. The thing that separates them is the openness of PC software and hardware. If they release an Xbox with "upgrade slots" (anyone remember the N64 memory pack?) they might as well just tell everyone to buy a PC, because that's basically all you'd get. Hell, there's almost no reason to get a console over a PC anymore (besides a few exclusives and the relatively low introductory price).

In addition, consoles with upgrade slots would defeat the purpose of a console: Putting the disk in and playing.

You can't do that on a PC because there are literally millions of different potential hardware combinations. You can do that on a console because there is only one combination of hardware. One. Of course, that's also what makes consoles start lacking in power. They are purely static machines unless you go out and purchase the fancy new version that probably has a mid level graphics card architecture to reduce costs anyways. There's a reason consoles are cheaper than consoles, and it isn't because PCs are expensive.

» Tue May 17, 2011 12:16 am

Well I run a side business where I build computers for people. I could make a desktop that can run mid-high details on any game for 700 dollars for people. Just haven't really got enough equity to expand my custom computer business to the internet hehe. Of course, that's 700 dollars without a monitor, which you can just plug the tower into your tv and it will be a "console"

Hell, my laptop cost roughly 800$ and I foudn that completely reasonable compared to the machine I was getting for my money.

» Tue May 17, 2011 9:03 am

What do you expect? 85% of the posters on this site are PCs. Probably 75% or more of them are active mod users.

It's like going to a Star Trek convention, trying to discuss politics and wondering why Klingon/Romulan diplomacy keeps coming up.

There's also the people who played oblivion on console because of the relative newness of the consoles and oblivion's similar launch date. The majority of TES players will be playing Skyrim on console. If BGS developed the game expecting the modding community to fix its flaws, they would lose substantial income.

» Tue May 17, 2011 10:54 am

In addition, consoles with upgrade slots would defeat the purpose of a console: Putting the disk in and playing.

You can't do that on a PC because there are literally millions of different potential hardware combinations. You can do that on a console because there is only one combination of hardware. One. Of course, that's also what makes consoles start lacking in power. They are purely static machines unless you go out and purchase the fancy new version that probably has a mid level graphics card architecture to reduce costs anyways. There's a reason consoles are cheaper than consoles, and it isn't because PCs are expensive.

There is actually a few dozen, if not more, combinations in hardware for consoles. They don't keep using the exact same components. As prices fluctuate, they will switch out various components to different makes, models, and brands. They all have near identical specs, but since you said "millions of different potential hardware combinations" for the PC you obviously included this situation in that number as well.

» Tue May 17, 2011 3:12 am

There's also the people who played oblivion on console because of the relative newness of the consoles and oblivion's similar launch date. The majority of TES players will be playing Skyrim on console. If BGS developed the game expecting the modding community to fix its flaws, they would lose substantial income.

Don't take my comment out of context now I'm not debating this issue. I was simply illustrating the reason why people keep bringing up mods in topics here.

» Tue May 17, 2011 8:22 am

You didn't even managed to reply to my 6 year old architecture comment, because there is no rebuttal. All consoles are built on practically ancient technology, and consistently, and always have, held back the speed at which graphics advance on games. Did you know that Crysis 2 actually was made to have slightly WORSE graphics than Crysis? Because consoles couldn't handle the game, let alone most PCs of the time. My PC can run Crysis at 60+ FPS, but I'm sure the 360 (perhaps the PS3 could) couldn't run Crysis without some rather harsh graphical cuts.

In addition, PC gamers who mod have to deal with a whole SLEW of crap to trudge through. .INI editing, load order modification, various platforms needed (such as script extenders or graphics extenders) that must be simultaneously ran, bugs that arise from mods, RAM being demolished by mods stacking up and eating memory, and all sorts of stuff. It isn't simple, it isn't easy, and it takes work, dedication, and a love of the game. To call PC gamers selfish is to deny all of this hard work and dedication that thousands of long time fans pour into the PC versions of these games. Even Daggerfall has folks (such as the DaggerXL platform) that are fully dedicated.

When it comes to graphics, that's more of a preference. Never cared too much about that, myself. Besides, I do after all play on console by choice, thus choosing the lesser of options.
I should have said this earlier, but I know I'm not an expert at what modding requires and all that so I should shut up, and please call me naive: but if it's such a pain to mod in a proper manner, why not just leave it as it is? If the modding stems from love for the game, why not just love the game as it is, despite it flaws? And yes, that is quite naive of me.
And while I know it is too late to say this, the attitude that one can download a mod and fix the game, that is what I mean by spoiled.

Anyway, hard work or not, if you have the means to fix it, you can't really complain. Almost no matter what it is in life that one does, it requires hard work. People who nag and moan because they actually have to work to get something in life, are just lazy and ungrateful. But of course, that's just my opinion. Either you agree or disagree, doesn't matter for me anyway.

Yeah, and by your view the fact that PC's can have better graphics makes them spoiled too right? and computer's should only have the graphic capabilities of current-gen consoles... Thats just stupid. If you could have mods you would use them too.

Yeah, I probably would. So much for principles, aye?

» Tue May 17, 2011 7:07 am

Hey you know what guys?

If you wish to (and can) invest the time and money into building a high end gaming pc and reap the benefits there of, cool.

If you don’t want too, or have more important priorities for your time and money, also cool.

Personally, I think the whole debate is an indictment of nerddom. Who gives a [censored]?

Can we talk about the game now?