The moral ambiguity of Fallout 4's factions

Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:29 am

1) Raiders [censored], murder and steal for giggles. The Synths who escaped the Insitute just want to be left alone. Not the same thing.

And the Minutemen never say they don't consider Synths people anyways.

3) No, it proves that those individuals were worthless. Every organization has bad people. That doesn't mean as a whole it's worthless and will always be worthless.

And those people are gone, anyways.

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I’m my own
 
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Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:09 pm

And how the hell are Synths supposed to campaign their own rights? Demonstrating on the streets or making "I can believe he's not human"-commercial? The institute would simply whisper the the return code into their ears and take them back.

The Minutemen are disloyal.

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Tikarma Vodicka-McPherson
 
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Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:14 pm

3) Since the Minutemen had no time to train new people, worthless people are the backbone of the Minutemen.

But the amount of worthless people in this organization is outstanding.

1) Synths are a hazard, just like raiders, the Institute can still work from the shadows and make these Synths do their do their bidding.

The Mayor, who expelled the ghouls from Diamond city, was a Synths.

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Mariana
 
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Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:58 pm

Not if I nuke them without issuing the evacuation order :P
Preston: "General! Please tell me you issued the order before we set the bomb off!"

Me: >_> Sure I did...

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Steven Hardman
 
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Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:55 pm

That's for example, is one of the flaws of the Minutemen, that the game should emphasize. Preston risks that the people of the institute survive and vow vengeance on the commonwealth.

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Vicky Keeler
 
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Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 11:39 am

To be fair, synths remain a hazard whether the Institute personnel gets nuked or not. They're still reprogrammable, and sooner or later someone's gonna figure out how to make one do their bidding... or three. Or all of them.

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Jesus Lopez
 
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Post » Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:03 am

What if a Synths finds out how to reprogram them and then makes the other Synths realize that they are master race. It would be like the a new Super mutant army.

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Shannon Lockwood
 
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Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:54 pm

It gets better that various factions provide contradictory information. For instance, the Institute claims they didn't kill all those people at the gathering but that's just the kind of thing they'd lie about.

Likewise, they claim the Synths are just reprogrammed to think they're people.

However, when you talk to Z-1, he talks about how all of the Synths secretly long for freedom and how many of them have been waiting their entire lives to revolt.

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Ashley Clifft
 
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Post » Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:02 am

Honestly, Aren't REAL humans programmed to think that they are alive? Are truly living and sentience even connected?

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Da Missz
 
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Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:36 am

As much as I loved the futuristc look and advanced technology of The Institute, I never really like them personality-wise. They seemed pretty snobish, and more unnerving, two-faced. I never really understood that whole business of "kidnapping settlers in the dead of night". Not unless they were replacing them with synths. But then what do they do with the settlers? Kill them? Real hope for humanity there.
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Ymani Hood
 
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Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:22 pm

The Institute also is a paper tiger.

If you play the Railroad quests, you find out the Institute is falling apart.

All of the levels but the main one are rusted, busted, and not much better looking than the Vaults you wander around.

Which makes sense, 200 years is 200 years.

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Angus Poole
 
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Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 11:21 pm

Whether synths are "human" (or rather sentient and deserving of the same considerations we grant our fellow human beings ... sometimes) is certainly an interesting subject that various science fiction books/movies/TV shows (including Star Trek) have tried to deal with for some time.

I'm sure most of you are familiar with the Turing Test. The basic idea is you put a person in a room, closed off with only two terminals. In two other rooms are a human, and an artificial lifeform/computer/android/etc. being evaluated. The human in the room with the terminals talks to the two of them over the terminals and has a conversation. The idea is that the computer/AI is considered to have passed if he cannot be told from the real human. Back in the late 70s there was a program called Eliza which pretended to be a psychotherapist. It was hopelessly short of passing such a test but was surprisingly convincing ... at least for a short while. At the point where the AI can't be told from the human by other humans, he has a right to expect a fair evaluation for his rights as a sentient. Yes on the one side, "programmed" synths who really have no self awareness might convince but not really be self-aware. But I'll remind you that the synth we see in the Capital Wasteland was, as far as I can tell, a Coarser. I would claim we ourselves are no more deserving of rights because of our biological origins if our creations can be alive enough to fool us. And frankly, even if I'm wrong, we're probably better off erring on the side of kindness than on the side of pride. By the way Star Trek's Federation isn't doing too well regarding it's AI creations as far as I can tell.

And as far as synths being "hazards" they certainly are -- but then we humans are too. How many raiders has any of us as the survivor thrown out of the gene pool? Any creature with free will can choose to be good or evil. If the synths could NOT turn into raiders, that might actually be a strike against them in terms of sentience.
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Louise
 
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Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 11:24 pm

Of course, even if the Synths are human, there's also the fact the situation isn't one which allows you to escape with clean hands. Innocent people are going to die no matter what path you choose to take. The only difference is you may have the chance to prevent MORE innocent people from dying if you're willing to absorb some collateral damage in the process. Like the ending to the Stormcloak and Imperial Civil War in Skyrim, all of those people you kill in taking those fortreses aren't bad guys, they're just fighting for a cause they believe in but the war is DRAGGING OUT and needs to be resolved to get to the real enemy in the Thalmor.

So, it's possible you may choose to sacrifice a few hundred Synths in the Institute to save a few thousand Wastelanders.

Or you may choose to sacrifce a few hundred Brotherhood of Steel members to save a few thousand nonhumans.

And so on and so on.

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Umpyre Records
 
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Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:04 pm

If we err on the side of kindness Synths might kill us. And even if Synths are self aware, it still possible that someone reprograms them to kill us.

Screaming and stinking raiders won't be able to live among us until someone enters the a code and makes them kill.

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Elena Alina
 
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Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:29 pm

Poor poor TRAITOROUS Scribe Haylen.

She'll need to be dealt with.

*Her personal log in Cambridge Police Station*

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Devin Sluis
 
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Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:12 pm

Honestly, the BoS has shades of the Enclave in their quest to destroy all non-humans and that really turned me off to them. They've always been arrogant isolationists (outside of 3) and have had heir prejudice against non-humans, but they've gone to the more extreme side in the recent game. It's why, on my first playthrough and learning of Maxson's beliefs (as well as the speech from other members around the ship) I decided that they weren't for my character. Genocide is NOT ok from his perspective as things aren't always black and white like the BoS tries to portray them to be.

I do have a question about the Minutemen, though... You can side with both them and one other faction, right? Or do you have to choose them over the others?
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SiLa
 
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Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:33 pm


The Minutemen can side with every other Faction.
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stacy hamilton
 
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Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:34 pm

Except the part when they are responsible for every single mutant in the Commonwealth. Because they released them for fun or something apparently. They must have dipped thousands of wastelanders in the process, just to kick back and watch the fireworks of mutants eating people alive.

The Institute is cartoonishly evil. There's no moral ambiguity when it comes to them. Initially you can be tricked into thinking they are, but only for the first playthrough. But once you know the full story, you realize that Elder Maxson has a point when he says they are a cancer. There's no debate, there's no question about it. Cartoonishly evil to the core.

You can say "Well I can change them myself as Director." But no, you can't really, because there's nothing you can do in-game to actually change Institute policies. Nothing. Which gives the only possible reasoning for siding with them as a good karma character a swift kick in the ass.

The only moral ambiguity when it comes to Fallout 4 is "Do I think Synths and ghouls deserve to be exterminated?"

If your answer is yes, welcome to the Brotherhood.

If your answer is no, then welcome to the Railroad or the Minutemen.

Them's the breaks.

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Emilie M
 
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Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 11:01 pm


To be fair, the Institute isn't evil so much as SHAUN is evil.

The Institutioners, by and large, are completely ignorant of what they're doing.

Which makes it worse.
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jenny goodwin
 
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Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:20 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Directorate knew full well what was going on in the FEV lab.

And I can't imagine that the people in Bioscience just remained ignorant of what was going on. Catching humans, transforming, and then releasing all those mutants takes alot of logistical work. Maybe not everyone in the Institute knows, but a good portion of them have to.

They really should have made the "discarded super-mutants to create the greatest threat in the commonwealth" more prominent. I figured "discarded" meant terminated.

That's a [censored] massive part of the story, and completely destroys any reason to side with the Institute other than just believing in completely amoral science to create lulzy evil.

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CArla HOlbert
 
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Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:38 pm


Doctor Li is a very high-ranking member of the Institute and in charge of her own division and very clearly has no idea what the hell Doctor Virgil is up to. She not only doesn't know what sort of experiments he's running or the details but isn't aware that he's run away, having been told he died in a lab accident. She feels awful about the Institute not helping Wastelanders, let alone, "is kidnapping them and turning them into the things which used to attack Rivet City." Likewise, Patriot is very clearly unaware what the Commonwealth is like and has been told it's a radioactive hellhole with no civilization whatsoever.

We also get propaganda from the Institute like the fact they weren't the ones who broke up the CAS and the euphemisms they use like, "eliminate all evidence of the experiment."

Also, while it does seem the Super Mutants are a creation of the Institute, Virgil doesn't seem to be the type to release them.

Everything is compartmentalized in the Institute.

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Ally Chimienti
 
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Post » Sat Nov 28, 2015 12:05 am

That's true, but even if most are ignorant, why release the mutants at all? What possible purpose can that serve? Why not just terminate them and save themselves potential issues.

Surely they can't be THAT ignorant as to assume that there is absolutely no human life up there that could potentially be killed by these flesh-eating freaks they are releasing like stray dogs. Its crazy. At the very least, the SRB has to be astutely aware of the actual situation in the Commonwealth and what harm they are doing. And Bioscience can't be totally ignorant if they are testing crops on active human settlements through synth replacement.

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Laura-Lee Gerwing
 
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Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 10:33 pm

Well, Patriot directly works with Bioscience and is completely ignorant. Also, Glory is a Synth but had the job of being an unsupervised scavenger on the surface so its' very clear the human beings are being kept in ignorance of the surface for reasons unknown. It seems very likely Shaun/Father doesn't want the Institute's humans to want to help with the Commonwealth and wants to keep his home clean and free.

Given the unethical nature of Institute experiments, it's possible the reason Shaun is releasing them on the surface is to observe them and see what they do.

Remember, he released you as an experiment to see if you'd kill Kellog and survive in the Commonwealth. Dude would fit right at home in Big Mountain. They should send his brain their way.

Alternatively, the Institute could just be epically careless with their garbage. Remember, they just dumped a perfectly functional 2nd generation Synth in Nick Valentine on the surface to free up space. The Commonwealth is lterally their rubbish bin. It's very possible they teleported up their Super Mutants without bothering to euthanize them not for any grand scheme but because they just DIDN'T CARE.

Just like they didn't bother to disassemble Nick and recycle his parts.

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Sophh
 
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Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:24 pm

I liked your summation OP, however I've decided to go with the institute once I get there, I have no choice now really with no BoS left on the map and railroad my next stop off point there wont be any other factions. I just want the tech to create a better Boston. Dictator style.

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Sabrina garzotto
 
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Post » Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:28 pm

The Commonwealth Supermutants were indeed created by the Institute.

The research started in 2178, Virgil wasn't the first FEV researcher, just the latest. I believe it is on another terminal in Bioscience (not Virgil's).

The TAGGED, RELEASED label implies exactly what it says on the tin, it's like what we do with the wild animals we study in real life but a lot more sinister and irresponsible.

The Institute really is very disconnected from the reality of life on the surface. Their view of the Commonwealth is overwhelmingly, unrealistically negative, but they don't seem to realize that a lot of the Commonwealth's problems are their fault.

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jennie xhx
 
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