This. It's very hard to take what the Institute says seriously about the Commonwealth being a chaotic wasteland given that they've consistently sabotaged every effort to actually have unity, like their massacre of the attempted government of the Commonwealth.

Which is why I go with the idea this is all a midlife (or last life) crisis of Shaun.

He awakens you, makes Synth Shaun, and tries to make you Director all because he's rethinking his life.

He wants you to reform the Institute.

Albeit, you can't make changes immediately....if ever.

You can actually make changes with the Department of Slave-Hunting, though. They only go after Synths who want to return if you replace its current head.

pffft. I agreed to lead the institute cos I wanted to march across the wastes with a Synth army. What I got was a bunch of well meaning academics, some polite robots, and a couple of bad-ass hunter synths. Hardly world-domination stuff lol

I could accept this as just the Institute not caring about anything above ground and being a nerdy kid with a magnifying glass and the Commonwealth is his anthill.

But what doesn't make any sense is that the super-mutants HAVE to disrupt Institute operations. Research studies, control tests, Synth scav teams. What happens with a pack of mutants attacks Warwick farm, kills the synth there, and ruins the GMO crop experiment?

Its ludicrous that they couldn't take they time to put a bullet in the super-mutant's head before zapping them out of the Institute. And even more ludicrous when you consider there being no reason to NOT to do it. It just smacks of horrible writing and a shoe-horned way to get super-mutants into the Commonwealth.

I mean what possible experiment to the benefit of the Institute or anyone does releasing an unwavering horde of monsters serve?

Oh he's well beyond that at this point. Dr. Klein and the rest at least have the excuse of being removed from their humanity and going senile.

Shaun is just insane. Or completely uncaring, or some combination of the two. He might be one of the most sinister characters in Fallout at this point. He's like the overseer of Vault 87 times 10. President Eden is a more morally justifiable character than Shaun. Easily.

I hate the Brotherhood, but I may have to side with them next time. Just to take out some of this frustration. And because King Arthur is actually *grumble* *grumble* right.

I still like the Institute however. I just can't side with them unless I'm roleplaying a completely uncaring character. Although to be fair, I really like creating those types of characters alot.

The experiment of making sure the Commonwealth remains a disunited Medieval Hellhole than coming to threaten the Institute?

That's the only answer which makes sense and that's basically fostering terrorism just to keep a region destablized and broken.

Shaun and Kissenger could exchange notes.

I think you can side with the Institute while well aware your son is insane, personally.

The game gives every faction a reason to be hated, so you sign up with the boy scouts.

Ghouls have become the [censored] test, if you hate ghouls, you are evil. I don't mind ghouls, but that's ridicules.

BTW, I recommend people who want to side with the Minutemen (or are just interested in them) investigate the ruins of Quincy. It's inhabited by a small army of Gunners with a collection of named Legendary Gunners with their leader being a man named Clint. He's a Minuteman in Power Armor. Clint is the guy who arranged for the destruction of the Minutemen and is the guy who made sure they were ambushed and without reinforcements at Quincy. Clint had the bright idea that by killing the Colonel and many of the Minutemen's top agents, they could destroy the Minutemen for good.

He intended to replace them with the Gunners (which had been disunited and reduced to Raiding) and rule over the Commonwealth directly.

I'm trying to remember but there may have been a Synth component to Clint too.

Which would be an awesome twist.

Awesome thread. I'd have to support the BoS but I'm still only halfway thru the game and I had NO IDEA that my son was a member of the institute, I thought he was a captured prisoner. I'm going to have to smack some sense into him.

How can the institute ever possibly be redeemed after they sent Kellog to blow your wife's brains out?

I think ima have to let the BoS destroy them for my wife's honor

I not sure, but I think I also remember that there was a synths part there.

Maybe that would change Preston's minds.

I think that would have been the easiest fix to all this: allow some change once you become the Director. Even just a little bit. Bury Shaun and mourn the man he could have been and not the man he became, and then put your gloves on and get to work cleaning house.

Like even just a single meeting with the Directorate post-game similar to how they did they choice of how to handle the Brotherhood. Just allow me to set some policies so I at least FEEL like I might be doing something. Rather than just being a ceremonial figure head that the intern occasionally gets the coffee for.

Decide to continue the Institute's policy of not giving a fig about the surface, or change it and start trying to direct their efforts towards more productive aims.

I guess. I'm just disappointed that's their ultimate aim and not something a bit more complex than "build a nuclear reactor, have a pint, and wait out the surface world in our scientific paradise."

They might, but then you'd have the same issues with humans. You could opt for ... prophylactic genocide, but this doesn't seem reasonable to me. Perhaps Vulcans should have exterminated humans on earth ... just in case. They're really just as good or bad as humans are (which they are designed to be similar to).

Yeah, I would have made the "Replace the Director of the Slave-Catcher Division" of the Institute a decision you could make after the Institute plot. You can do it beforehand but that feels kind of meaningless.

It would go a long way to making you seem less like an asshat for siding with the Institute. I confess, as I approach the Railroad ending, they are kind of creeping me out. Especially as they're telling me to lie to the Institute members of the Railroad about their plan (it's not just Patriot--he has friends).

Hell, you could even keep the Institute largely as is with sentient Synths.

How different would the Institute be if Synths were paid laborers given the alternative is working in Radioactive HellTM. They just wouldn't have to fear brainwipes and execution.

Honestly I'm far less concerned about that aspect (actually to be perfectly honest I don't care at all). Than I am by the "kidnap random wastelanders and replace them like Invasion of the Body Snatchers" part. And we can't even remotely address that glaring issue as Director.

Honestly I'd be content with a "heave in the oars, batten down the hatches, and don't touch the Commonwealth at all you [censored]s" choice. Something to isolate the Institute and keep them from mucking things up on the surface world so they can stay in their own isolated little bubble.

The Railroad creeped me out from the beginning. Which is funny because I sympathize with them ideologically for the most part.

I just don't do the "abolitionist-freedom-fighter" shtick.

Oh I'm all about the killing slavers and liberating people.

I'm one of the original slaver-hunting Zombie Lincoln players.

No, Synths are much more dangerous than humans, they are like sleeper agent, that only wait to be activated and even the Synths themselves couldn't stop that.

Nope, Clint doesn't have a Synth component. I always looked for those when I killed a named NPC ;P

Clint didn't really want to replace the minutemen I think. Judging by what he wrote, he was just disillusioned with them and thought that joining the Gunners would be more beneficial for him. It is a shame that Minutemen don't have a quest to retake Quincy or for you as the General to get to exchange a few words with him... if minutemen needed one quest, it was about Qincy and Clint.

On topic of Supermutants, I am pretty sure most of them are from Capital Wasteland as Supermutant comments make it clear that they are searching for FEV (or Green Stuff as they call it) and I doubt that Institute Supermutants would know anything about that.

There are REAL human sleeper agents (or just regular agents). They're just as dangerous in the role as synths. They aren't MORE dangerous for being synths. The miracle is that a bunch of 1st gen synths can actually defeat a group of raiders.

Yes what is scary is that they can substitute for people (like invasion of the body snatchers). But they can't do it any better than a human with reconstructive facial surgery. A human sleeper agent can use memory extraction/implantation to make their impersonation more convincing in Fallout 4.

If you think there's anything morally ambiguous about the minutemen, then how do you feel about RL police, firefighters, and military? All of them protect us (for which I'm grateful, btw) and receive money.

The minutemen are so obviously the good guys that only the fact that they don't have a game ending makes any of the other factions into choices.

And there you do encounter a huge moral swamp. Only the railroad seems like good guys, but Nick's indifference to them suggests that they're wrong, that synths aren't people.

I think he disapproves of their methods not their goals.

They do have a game ending.

Minutemen Downside

The Minutemen's weakness is the fact they have a history of infighting and chaos whenever they don't have a strong central leader binding them together and even when you meet other Minutemen on the road like in the Institute quets, not all of them acknowledge you as the General. While you may successfully restore the Minutemen to their former glory and have the Castle as well as the Tricorn to show you're the BIG BOSS MANtm, that's only going to make sure they choose to obey you.

The Minutemen are also not really strong enough to bring order to the Commonwealth. A Mirelurk Queen devastated the organization before the Gunners finished the Minutemen off. The Mirelurk Queen is a heavyweight, true, but there's a LOT of heavyweights in the Commonwealth like Deathclaws, Super Mutant Behemoths, and more. Artillery can compensate for some of these but not all. Also, the Gunners are pretty damn powerful as Raiders go but they're not in the same league as the Super Mutants, BoS, or Institute. The fact the Minutemen can beat the latter two is only because you come up with some very good plans to deal with them.

And the BoS may come back to pay you back for murdering their Elder.

The Minutemen are a "moral" choice but they're not exactly going to save the Commonwealth in a shiny sixy way like the Institute or BoS either.

Nick loves it when you say Synths are people to the Railroad.

Nick HATES it when you say the Railroad should liberate all Synths by force.

That could be a coding error but it's also possible Nick thinks the Railroad is a bunch of gun-toting fanatics.

He got acceptance in Diamond City the Hard Way (even if they still won't serve him at the General Store)..

Cons of the Minutemen:

- too naive - this caused many to leave the organization

- proved their instability already

- have no long-term vision

- too dependent on having a competent leader

- they are weaker than the other three factions, which makes them less reliable on the long run

And most important of all: you are the Minuteman General and the restored Minuteman organization are your lackeys. This means that EVERY ending is a Minuteman Ending so choosing their ending is less about supporting the Minutemen and more about not supporting anyone else.

Personally, I think they work better as "Rangers to NCR" than the "NCR itself".

Well, they can build the beginnings of NCR with the Minutemen.

However, the "every ending is a Minutemen ending" isn't true.

You can refuse Preston and choose not to rebuild the Minutemen.

Yeah, I kinda forgot to put the "As long as you accept to become their General..." part XP

See, I like the Railroad. They feel right. I like their missions the most, I think they have some of the most memorable characters and I think they wanna do good. But they're kinda dumb. And I think that might be more the way the game is set up than the people in it themselves. It's weird to want to treat synths like people and then annihilate their means of creation. That is a bizarre, erratic choice. You have freed them of slavery but doomed them to existential despair since they are literally the last that will ever be. You also wanna treat synths like people but what about the gen 3's that are happy with the Institute? Don't they count? Have they not achieved the requisite level of sentience to count? Why? Because they don't want to leave? How can you be sure they don't simply prefer/believe in the Institute?

There really should have been an option to sidle up to Desdemona and say: "Hey, Des. Just chill. I'll soon be in charge of the Institute and I will change things, gen 3's indicating some desire to be free can be sent your way. The Railroad can be slightly re-purposed to help synths adjust to the outside world without worrying about the Institute hunting them down and without having to wipe out their memories. Doesn't that sound like fun? We can even start printing pamphlets about how synths are just like you to get the rest of the Commonwealth used to the idea.

Now lets go blow up the fascists humping their power armor!"

I wound up going with the Institute which surprised me but 1) I had a hard time figuring out what kind of person would shaft their son, especially after they learned he was dying, it was definitely not the character I was playing 2) the Institute does not seem so resistant to change as say, the Brotherhood. They're not as rigid. You hear divisive opinions about a variety of things while you walk around down there which means people are allowed to question and think and change. Which means my character can change things and she will. Their aggressively asserted need for secrecy for instance can be seen as symptomatic of fearing the threats up top, with their power supply assured and all meaningful threats removed that shouldn't be necessary. Plus all that luscious tech? And no 'my precious' BS mentality the Brotherhood has got going on? They're the objectively best chance for actual, tangible change in the world. Among the samples present anyway.

Segue away to meta observations: I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop with the Institute. What, exactly, was their purpose? Why synths? Why gen 3 synths? Was their a broader purpose to it? Was it really all just 'well it seemed like a good idea to ensure our continuing well-being at the time'? I didn't finish up the Railroad questline so I don't know if this ever gets raised as an issue but wouldn't at least Glory have something to say about blowing up the only place that's able to make more people like her? If we value synths like people why are we so down with killing people? Why are we not asking questions about gen 3's that are happy with the Institute? Why can't you just chill for a while so that I can wait for my son to die and take over? It was weird, squiggly.