Let me say this, In-game lore is not gospel, but it is far closer in my opinion that out of game material. Just my opinion

I will also point out that Todd Howard in his Skyrim interview did declare that even in-game sources may be wrong.

So with the realization that in-game sources could still be wrong, we need to piece together elements of this lore with caution

Preferably in a way that conforms to your predetermined notions, right?

So now that we've dismissed both out-of-game and in-game lore, could you please tell us why you take the stance you do?

What do you base your opinion that Alduin is not Akatosh on, or you opinion that Alduin is not the god of time associated with destroying the world?

This works in his example, the Dwemer. We have no arguments against he thought that Alduin = Akatosh, so it's only reasonable to believe it is so until proven wrong.

My wanting to remove the name Akatosh was to keep the focus on the function of this god as the custodian of Time. To emphasize that the role of gods in the TES universe is constrained by their portfolios and finally to assert that the job of the god of time is not to destroy the world

You have heard of the "Dawn" before, haven't you? What about the "Dragon Break"?

Yes, you thought that removing the names would play to your bias, but it works just the opposite. The god of time is shown as having the job of destroying the world, as I've already shown. If you choose to simply dismiss this, and the theme of the Monomyth and everything else in TES that suggests the same thing, that is your own problem - however, if you choose to simply dismiss things for no reason, you cannot then say that your view is somehow the supported view.

Alduin is Auri-El is Akatosh. This is not up for debate.

According to The Monomyth, Auri-El is a big dragon who rules over time, was prominently involved in the creation of the world, and thinks the existence of the Mundus is a bad thing.

According to Varieties of Faith and The Five Songs of King Wulfharth, Alduin is a big dragon who rules over time, was prominently involved in the creation of the world, and thinks the existence of the Mundus is a bad thing.

It is transparently obvious that Alduin and Auri-El are human and elven views of the same god. Denying that Alduin is Auri-El is like denying that Lorkhan is Shor.

Akatosh is a political compromise, created to appease human Cyrodiilics who had adopted the religion of their Ayleid overlords. This is why, unlike Auri-El, he thinks the existence of the Mundus is a good thing. Hell, in The Monomyth, the Cyrodiilic creation myth has Auri-El and Akatosh as not only two separate gods, but enemies! Alduin actually has more in common with Auri-El than Akatosh does! So how, if we accept that Akatosh is Auri-El, can we possibly think that Alduin is not Auri-El?

If Alduin isn't Akatosh (or Auriel), then are there equivalents to Alduin in other religions besides the Nords? A god powerful enough and willing to bring about the end of all Nirn seems like a big one to miss completely.

Satakal seems comparable to Alduin in eating the world, but Ruptga seems comparable to Akatosh in the role of helping people bypass that destruction. The Yokudans don't seem to have a distinct 'time god', but spread those attributes out amongst their pantheon.

I agree, and think this is one of the simplest reasons to say Akatosh=Alduin=Auri-El. All known religions share the same Aedric and Daedric figures. Time dragons, lovers, trickster-creators, wind gods, etc. Considering the Nordic religion is probably closest to what Nedes believed, and is so close to what the Mer believe, why would someone say that they have a unique figure in their pantheon that has been forgotten by every other race?

Add the hating Mundus, dragon, towers and covenent failing, and I think you would have to be extremely obstinate to not concede that Akatosh is Alduin is Auri-El

I love reading challenges to the monomyth. It brings a refreshing spin back to things. Even if it has to explain way too much.

Carry on.

Ho ha ho.

You already [censored] with us enough with the stuff you write for the setting, MK, stop taunting the kid.

And I think the main argument here is a kid who likes his settings more like D&D and LotR against a bunch of dudes obsessed with mytheopoeic fractal echo-knights decked in power armor forged from the skin of the god that's the soul of the Earth that's the soul of Change that's the soul of IS NOT.

Either side could get really cool or really stupid, really fast.

Except that in Hinduism it is not Shiva "the destroyer" that brings the apocalypse. It is an avatar of Vishnu "the preserver", called Kalki.Vishnu saves humanity 9 times as benovlent avatars, and his tenth form represents the eternity of time and how it brings an end to all things. Akatosh = god of time........

Hey now! When have I ever taunted or [censored] with anyone on these boards?




There's room enough for both. I've written both. It's where they meet that things get Tamrielic.



Corner of No and Duh. Agreed. So I'll leave you with this: Occam's Razor, ya'll, now add the aftershave.

I may have been misreading your intentions, but saying "HA HO HA" in a thread where someone is very adamant about not believing anything you've written seems a bit like a taunt.

And some people don't like their peas touching their mashed potatoes. Just sayin'.

Ho ha ho is not MK taunting us, it's from a passage below.
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/seven-fights-aldudagga

Didn't know about that story. I accede.

I'm amazed that anyone's using the angle of "time god != world eater" to argue against Akatosh-is-Auriel-is-Alduin. Nothing could be more appropriate that a single being plays both roles; whatever the mortal races happen to name it.

I was re-reading The Hobbit last night, and I got to Riddles in the Dark. Can you guess which riddle of Gollum's reminded me immediately of Alduin?


This thing all things devours;
Birds, beasts, trees, flowers;
Gnaws iron, bites steel;
Grinds hard stones to meal;
Slays king, ruins town,
And beats high mountain down.

Time! Time!

Yes, but does Alduin know what's in the Bagginses pockets?

It seems that discussions of the lore tend to descend into beauty contests with one side attempting to demonstrate how much more they know than the other...

This really should not be the case. Let me state it clearly, I am NOT, I repeat NOT a Loremaster.

If it helps anybody's ego I am rather ignorant in these matters.

That said, this lore is convoluted, even in game sources could be wrong, out of game conjecturing even more so...

Some folks are saying that 200 years after the avatar of the Dragon god of time defended Tamriel against utter destruction by Mehrunes Dagon, 200 years after the joined blood of Dragons and kings finally sealed the barriers to oblivion to PRESERVE Mundus. The Dragon god is back again to destroy the world...it does not seem to add up.

May I point out that right this moment, the joined blood of Akatosh and Martin is protecting Mundus from an Oblivion invasion

When you combine this with the fact that gods operate in portfolios and that the texts that refer to Alduin as Akatosh specifically declare that the similarity is SUPERFICIAL (ie only on the surface) You begin to see that two separate gods are in play here

I think that's exactly what it should be, since one of the best ways to figure out who's right is to figure out who knows more. The one who knows what they're talking about it generally the one who's correct, especially when they can prove they're correct using the much more they know.

Also, a beauty contest is the exact opposite of a contest to demonstrate who knows more. Just sayin'.

Time has multiple functions in its portfolio. One is sustaining, another is destroying. It's like you're momma who sustained you used to say "I brought you into this world and I can take you out of it", except he's like, really serious about that last part.

:turtle:

Ninjad, it seems.

Well see, the thing is, you are missing a lot. By ending the Dragonborn, that means the pact that forced the god of Time that had been in effect since Alessia is over, so he can go back to his elven/Nordic persona of destroying the world. The mer think this is a good thing because to them Mundus is a prison. The Nords think it is a bad thing because to them Nirn is a testing ground.

And how does two characters being a personification of an aspect of time lead into a superficial similarity?

And Fearless Hero, I tend to use that argument of the whole Time God thing all over the place. It's kind of like people. It's simply too much for a single person to focus on another's whole personality. So having a god be that taken up to eleven, it is hard for a whole culture to see the entire god. So each focuses on a separate part (preserver, destroyer, etc.) and then assigns a good or bad stamp based on that and their other beliefs.

Hmmm

They keep saying that in Skyrim you will be able to stop TIME...

What does this mean??

As far as I know only an Apotheosis will trigger an interruption in the flow of time...

But using this as a feature of combat?...

What does this mean?