On a recent play through of Morrowind, something struck me as a bit odd: When you speak to the wise woman of the Urshilaku, she says you are not the Nerevarine, but you could become the Nerevarine. But, isn't the Nerevarine supposed to be the reincarnation of Nerevar? That's not something you become, you're born that way. While I can understand that she just means she doesn't know, and you have to fullfill the prophesy so they know for a fact that you are the Nerevarine, but Dagoth Ur seems to believe you are, and yet he trys to get you to not fullfill the prophecy, which would mean you aren't the Nerevarine, but if you aren't the Nerevarine, he shouldn't think you of all people are. I wonder if the term incarnate, which they often use, is a better word then reincarnation, as it can implies you embody what Nerevar stood for, but you aren't his reincarnated spirit. Just something I started wondering about, thought I would share it and see what you folks think.

The prisoner fulfilled the prophecies, but he was not the nerevarine because he didn't pass all of the trials yet. He became the nerevarine by fulfilling the trials of the prophecies.

No I get what he's saying. That the Nerevarine is supposed to be a reincarnation of Nerevar. But a reincarnation would be absolute always a reincarnation, whether or not they did some trials.

What I mean is to be a Reincarnate you have to be born into it, you can't become it. So when she says that she probably does mean she has no idea, try it out etc.

OR

She can tell you are, but wants you to do the Trials just in case. This way she can be certain.

Any old geezer can be born on a certain day to uncertain parents, be an outlander, and get cured of Corprus (Third less likely, but still possible for those with good immune systems).

The real sign of nerevarine is whoever can wear Moon and Star without being killed.

Perhaps when she says the Nerevarine she means the person who fulfills the prophecies and does all the trials instead of plainly meaning that you are the reincarnation of Nerevar?

Nibani Maesa is saying that you were not born to be the incarnate of Nerevar, but through the actions you have done, you have the option to become the Nerevarine. It's a diluted, in-game way of saying that your character does not have to be the Nerevarine. If you want to play an Orc Barbarian who refuses to do the duties the legion has assigned him, you will not be breaking the game. You don't have to fulfill the prophecies because you technically aren't the Nerevarine until you start to fulfill them. Make sense?

What Maruhkati said, is how I have thought she meant.

A way to simply say that you can do as you please (out of character) and at the same time say that you can become the Nerevarine.

Two things to keep in mind.

The first is that the term Nerevarine has more than one meaning. There is the use of it to refer to the literal reincarnation of Nerevar, there is the use of it as the Ashlander title for their war-leader (you get named "Nerevarine" by each of the tribes), and a third use which seems to refer to an individual fulfilling the Nerevarine Prophecies. The Ashlanders seem to use the word without much distinction, which helps lead to the second thing, which is that...

The Ashlanders aren't afraid to work in contradictions

"The Temple notes that these False Incarnates discredit the Nerevarine prophecies. Singularly, and illogically, the Ashlanders acknowledge a history of false claimants, calling them "Failed Incarnates," but they regard them as proof of the validity of the prophecies, rather than contradiction. Among the Nerevarines there is a fable of a Cavern of the Incarnates, where the spirits of the Failed Incarnates dwell. The Nerevarine cult is a mystical cult, and it glorifies, rather than shrinks from, contradictions."http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-notes-huleeya

Nibani Maesa's apparent contradiction may be standard thinking on her part.



Then we could always get into a discussion of incarnation versus manteling.

Note the phrase "failed incarnate" in Luagar's quote. Being an incarnation of Nerevar is something that one becomes (assuming the correct requisites are in place), or fails to become.

Also, recognize incarnation has a specific meaning in TES:

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/nu-hatta-sphinxmoth-inquiry-tree

Don't mistake the description given for incarnation. "Destiny" makes it sound as though your character was always going to become the Nerevarine. And indeed someone did fulfill the Prophecies. However, this does not necessarily mean that it was any of your characters. Their choices are not negated by it, they are reinforced. To be able to deny and turn your back on destiny is a powerful thing.

That's actually a different take than I've traditionally taken on the term.

Generally I translate "Failed Incarnate" as an Incarnate who has Failed, that is, a legitimate reincarnation of Nerevar who didn't win - this ties in with Vivec's statement in the Sermons about killing Nerevar again and again until he learns his lesson. The soul is being cycled through until it gets things right.

That said I'd look at incarnation as the passive becoming of an individual and mantling as the active becoming of an individual. If Incarnation is also active, then what separates it from Mantling? Perhaps we should determine whether the term "built" in your quote refers to something built by destiny or by the individual - that is, is it built for the individual or does the individual have to build it. I assume the former, but I'd be open to the latter if it can be properly argued.

Assuming that destiny exists that is - which if you can turn your back on it then its not really destiny (unless its stabs you in the back as a response).

Which is why I said 'powerful thing'. To be able to do something deemed impossible. Or maybe by not following the path of the Nerevarine you're actively tearing down your destiny? I don't know. But the point stands that you have the choice to become the Nerevarine, just as you have the choice not to.

You might be tearing down or turning your back on something, but its not destiny. Destiny isn't something you can turn your back on, to do so voids the very definition of the word and means that you're talking about something else. If you [objectively] have a choice you were never destined.

Yet there's no denying that the to-be-Nerevarine did fulfill the Prophecy. We cannot choose whether s/he came or not, because the events of TES3 did happen. However, we do have a choice if that person was our character or not. We do not have to unite the tribes and houses. We do not have to retrieve the Moon-and-Star. We do not have to do anything that will define and solidify us as the Nerevarine. If that is not objectively turning your back on destiny, then you tell me what it is.

EDIT: Remembering that the Nerevarine is an incarnation. And, per TES definition (as linked above), incarnation is "built from the cobbles of drawn-bone destiny".

The way I see it, Nerevarine is not merely a reincarnation of Nerevar, but the reincarnation that actually succeeds in fulfilling the prophecies.

That's been my standard take on the issue as well.

Nothing is, that's been my whole point. A destiny that can be defied is like having a married bachelor, its a contradiction in terms.

The rest of your argument confuses an out-of-character perspective with an in-character on. Out-of-character there's no denying that a Nerevarine fulfilled the prophecies, its canon, TES3 happened. In-character we have a choice as to whether or not we fulfill those prophecies. In no way are we turning our backs on destiny by not playing our character as the Nerevarine, because this is all in-character, and in-character TES3 doesn't have to happen. Your quote is from a general lore standpoint and doesn't address the particulars of how you play the game.

How exactly do you define destiny?

You keep saying that denying destiny is a contradiction as if that in itself makes what I'm saying wrong. Yet it was you who quoted a passage that states the Nerevarine Cult "glorifies, rather than shrinks from, contradictions". So I agree, it is, most obviously, a contradiction. But what I'm not seeing is how that makes it any less valid. Especially in a world such as TES. Maybe there is no word for when your character doesn't follow his/ her destiny. Maybe a contradiction is the only way it can be explained.

And I do not see how I was confusing perspectives. You could play a single Morrowind game for 10 years and the canon events wouldn't happen (assuming you didn't do the mainquest), but the in-game date would move forward. The world would be stagnant. It's a null point based on game-mechanics at best. From a lore stand-point, given enough time, the Nerevarine would eventually come.

Sermon-wise, it's the synchronicity within happenstance, which lends itself to an event.

That's also the belief of the Nerevarine cult.

Ah, now you're showing spirit, and here I was beginning to lose hope. Its not that we need a term for when the character defies destiny, because that means there was never really any destiny to begin with (just something that was likely or hopeful of happening) - we need a term for a flexible outcome as desired by the powers-that-be. Having a character defy what you call destiny in your world isn't in any way breaking metaphysical bonds of logic or being innovative, its just proving that destiny never really existed in your world. I prefer paradoxes over contradictions that are true, one is fun, the latter is doublethink and 1984 was poorly thought out.

If I were to be entirely truthful I'd say that I don't think there really was any contradiction in the view of the Nerevarine Cult, its just that the Temple thought there was a contradiction because the Temple is using wrongheaded thinking.

The point is that the lore-standpoint had nothing to do with what your character does, one is in-game the other is not. Whether the Nerevarine eventually comes in lore has no relevance to what your character does in-game, therefore you can't use that as a basis to say your character is defying something.

There are clear contradictions, not just in the Cult, but even in the idea of the Nerevarine itself. As an incarnation, it suggests to us that whomever the Nerevarine is was born as such. S/he would embody part of Nerevar's soul from birth. However, the Wise Woman states that you can only 'become' the Nerevarine. Already there's a contradiction between the definition of what it means to be an incarnation, and the means you have to go to become it. Now, maybe the Wise Woman means you're not the Nerevarine in the eyes of the people. Maybe it's not as literal as 'do these trials to become the Nerevarine'. It's more to prove you are, to win their hearts. Which is a fair point, except one thing. The dialogue choices given to you during the battle with Dagoth Ur. Even after all the trails, after uniting all the tribes, after proving yourself, you still have the choice to not be the Nerevarine. You can deny it, you can say no. Now, if denying the soul of the being you are meant to have embodied is not contradictory to what being an incarnation is then, well, I don't know. And if you've got a better, more enjoyable explanation for the contradictory nature of the Nerevarine, I'm all ears.

saying you 'can become' the neverie is used as another way of saying you 'might become' the neverine. We only have the illusion of free, will, given the exact same circumstances the exact same particles in the exact same positions that make up our mind will make the exact same choices. So our choices might lead us to be neverine is what she is saying, and we have no control over it; it it ends up happening then it will happen no matter what.

Particle physics isn't appropriate here.

And it's all about free will. Think about who the Nerevarine is: his/her actions cannot be wholly determined by factors within the Aurbis.

I already pointed out that the word 'Nerevarine' has various meanings, only one of which is the literal reincarnation of Nerevar.

The question with Dagoth Ur is simple. If you choose "By the grace of gods and fate, I am Nerevar reborn" then you are saying that your character was fated to become the Nerevarine from the getgo, that destiny had been directing you all along. If you choose "I am a self-willed hero, and I make my own fate" then you are saying that fate was never involved with you becoming the Nerevarine, you weren't fated and destiny had no role, you made the choice - its not that you were destined to be Nerevar Incarnate and then turned your back on it, its that you were never destined to begin with.

In the choice with Dagoth Ur you're choosing whether you were controlled by fate, not whether or not you went against fate.

Heh. So I've killed my own argument. Even if you choose it as destiny, you've already followed it to it's conclusion. The only way you can turn your back on it is to choose that it wasn't destiny, which also nulls my point. Fair enough, I concede (albeit grudgingly). Lesson learned, and thanks.

This. Put in better words than me.
The Nerevarine is the one who fulfills the prophecies. That he is the reincarnation of Nerevar is just another piece in the prophecy-puzzle.