The entire Mojave gets attacked. All roads to and from Hoover Dam get blocked. All NCR forces are undermanned everywhere else, even McCarran. Fiends, Khans, and even the Brotherhood of Steel (in one ending) attack NCR in all fronts. Legion attacks NCR on all fronts. Doesn't matter if Hoover Dam has hundreds of soldiers.

They're getting no reinforcements and NCR is dead everywhere else. It was over the moment Legion attacked Hoover Dam. Unless the Courier discovered all of these plans.

That's because he doesn't have other plans. Face it; the developers wrote it that way on purpose. We see numerous examples of the Legion using other plans (what Longknife mentioned) as well as examples of the Legion using superior tactics (attacking through the intake towers), and all the time Oliver sticks with, "well, we just need to put all the troops at the Dam then we'll win, right?" It takes more planning and more complex tactics than that.

No one is saying that Oliver shouldn't amass most of his troops at the Dam, just that he svcks as a commander and that the NCR will suffer for it.


That's not what I saying. I meant that Oliver assumes that the Legion will simply charge across the Dam just like he plans to do, and it is incredibly lazy for a tactician (if you want to call him that) to assume something like that, especially when he knows that the Legion tried overrunning the Dam with sheer force last time around and failed. And don't say that we don't know if Oliver assumed that or not, because if he didn't assume that, wouldn't he have bothered to check the intake tunnels? Or done anything other than just sit there with a bunch of troops waiting for the Legion to come pouring over the top of the Dam? (that's what he does.)


That was kind of my point. Of course Oliver should amass troops at the Dam, but he doesn't do anything else. His whole strategy fails because of the factors that I mentioned last time. As a General, he needs to think beyond simply amassing troops on the battlefield if he expects to defeat an opponent like the Legion.

Of course it does. What you think after Lanius' force is repulsed and running back to Arizona the battle-hardened NCR garrison at Hoover Dam is just going to sit on its hands and bemoan how they're cut off? Of course not. They're going to counter-attack and push back any remaining Legion forces they run into. If the NCR wins at the Dam the Legion is defeated no matter how many other NCR outposts they've destroyed because their main army has been devastated and prevented from crossing the Colorado.


I'm not arguing the NCR wins in the Mojave sans Courier. If you take the Courier out of the equation the NCR would be overwhelmed. I'm saying that Oliver's strategy to mass at the Dam is not wrong. It is the correct approach. He doesn't have an unlimited number of troops. Concentrating the finite resources he does have at the Dam which the Legion is relying on taking to conquer the Mojave is the right approach.

And in the hands of someone competent they would've won.


Then we've just been talking at cross-purposes the whole time. Oliver's strategy was fine. His execution of it just svcked.

That's likely, although if Caesar knew that the NCR leadership was more competent, he probably would have built up a lot more to compensate for it. That's all speculation though.


I suppose, yes. Although I don't know if I even consider Oliver's strategy a real strategy. "Put troops at place that needs to be defended" is just a basic necessity, not really an actual battle strategy. Oliver just assumes that his more competent lower ranking officers will take care of the whole strategy and tactics part.

I don't know. The impression Lanius gives is that Caesar is already sending more than the Legion can spare for this campaign. Caesar seems pretty determined to avoid another defeat.


Well it's a pretty simplistic static defense at the Dam coupled with sacrificing ground everywhere else but that seems to be the best, if not the only option for the NCR given their dire straits and the importance of the Dam to the Mojave campaign. He also correctly ignores all the Legion feints although whether that's due to understanding they are feints or blinkered stupidity is anyone's guess.

Uhm, what?
No it doesn't work like that. I basically said "God does not exist," you answered with "yes he does," I said "Evidence he exists?" and now you're trying to say "Evidence that he DOESN'T exist? It's impossible to prove a negative. Furthermore, several NPCs criticize Oliver's "tunnel vision" and willingness to just throw bodies at the Legion until they win, from House to Hanlon. NPC commentary suggests he is NOT a good leader (Hsu would be general instead of Oliver, if not for Oliver knowing the president. Quoted from Boone), not the opposite. Name one NPC who says Oliver is a great guy and an excellent leader.

But yeah, anyone with a basic knowledge of the court of law will tell you that if YOU make a claim (in this case, that Oliver is a good leader with a backup plan) then it's YOUR responsibility to prove he has one. It's not my responsibility to prove he doesn't have one as that's a complete logical fallacy. YOU have the burden of proof, not me.




Meant to distract? Are you aware that there are important people stationed at those positions who could die?

And how is it an indisputable fact that solely Hoover Dam decides the campaign? Listen, just because it's called "The Second Battle of Hoover Dam" does NOT mean it encompasses solely those men who are fighting AT it. No, the entire Mojave lights up in that battle. Yes, Hoover Dam is the main goal, but that doesn't mean it decides EVERYTHING.

Are you implying that if the NCR successfully defended Hoover Dam, but lost Forlorn Hope, Camp MacCarren, The Strip, Camp Golf and Helios ONE, then that's a victory for the NCR? If so, you've got more tunnel vision than Oliver himself.



Again, evidence that they WOULD spot them? I mean they sure as [censored] didn't spot the Legion coming into the Dam, and you said it yourself that that's their main focus, so I dunno why you give them the benefit of the doubt that they'd spot people at other spots that they don't stress as much as the Dam. You've also got Hanlon falsifying ranger reports, so who the hell knows what would actually be communicated...

This was started by a claim that Oliver's strategy was inflexible and he can't think beyond massing troops at Dam. We don't know that. Oliver is massing at the Dam due to the fact that the Legion is going to launch its main attack at the Dam. That the Legion in fact requires the Dam to conquer the Mojave. We have no clue if his strategy is inflexible because there's never a need for him to change it. Since there's no scenario where the Legion opts to launch its main attack say via Cottonwood Cove into the NCR rear we have no reason to assume that Oliver's strategy is inflexible. We don't know how he would react under different circumstances but it's pretty insane and completely unsupported by any evidence to think he's totally incapable of redeploying his forces if the Legion were to attack a different way.

House is the only one who mentions tunnel vision and we have no reason to believe he's right. House obviously doesn't know Oliver. How is it tunnel vision to correctly identify the main objective of the enemy and defend it with everything he has? This just seems like House talking out of his ass about a subject he doesn't understand. Or does he understand but somehow doesn't realize that Oliver couldn't possibly know there's a Securitron army ready to pop out underneath the Fort. Hanlon criticizes Oliver's tactical dispositions which are not stellar and I don't recall claiming otherwise. Since I'm not claiming Oliver is a great guy or an excellent leader I don't see why I would need to bring up any evidence for that ridiculous point.


I don't recall ever claiming that Oliver is a good leader. He's a mediocre (at best) tactician and gloryhound who does more than anyone else we know of in the NCR to ensure the NCR will be defeated. I'm just pointing out his overall strategy that people just assume is bad because it's Oliver or House said so is correct. And I'm still not sure why you think you can just assume Oliver has no plan beyond defending the Dam but the contrary requires evidence. He's focused on defending the Dam because the Legion is focused on taking it. That's not being inflexible that's sticking to the right plan. You need to demonstrate that if the Legion were to have a different plan of attack that didn't make the Dam the lynchpin of the whole campaign he would be incapable of reacting to it as much as I need to prove the opposite.


Uh because if the Legion doesn't win at the Dam they don't conquer the Mojave as we know from the ending. Pick the Independent option. Don't help the NCR at all. In fact make it as awful for them as possible. Don't activate the Securitrons under the Fort. Don't do anything to hurt the Legion. The Fiends sack McCarran. The Brotherhood storms Helios One. The Kings riot in Freeside. Camp Golf is attacked and presumably suffers heavy casualties. Novac is ravaged. Forlorn Hope is presumably attacked or overrun. In other words everything the Legion was banking on besides the Dam goes right. Yet they still lose the Mojave campaign. What were these overwhelming Legion forces that are totally capable of taking on what's left of the NCR garrison after the battle at Hoover Dam frightened off by what's left of the Strip's non-upgraded Securitrons?

The other Legion attacks are feints. They cannot take the Mojave without seizing the Dam.


The game developers seem to agree by making those conditions possible yet the Legion still loses the campaign.


All those ranger stations providing overwatch of the Colorado river? Pretty sure that's why they exist. But that's alright. Because the NCR cannot unmask Frumentarii or notice infiltrators at the Dam it is completely reasonable to believe they are incapable of noticing when an army tries to slip across the Colorado.

Well, to be fair, the Dam is the main crossing point of the Colorado, and it doesn't seem that the Legion can pour enough troops across by boat to really take all of the locations you mentioned. The Dam is also where all of the NCR's military is concentrated, so if the Legion can't take the Dam, then they're going to have a huge problem on their hands even if they do manage to take all of the locations you mentioned. Why? Because the two sides are numerically similar, so the 1000 NCR troops holed up at the Dam and 1000 Legion troops scattered around the Mojave are eventually going to have to clash. The Legion would win by starving out the NCR, but it would still be far more costly than simply wiping out the NCR at the Dam in the first place and then waiting for the rest of their Mojave troops to retreat back to California.

Well remember that a large portion of Legionaries still had the ability to mount a successful assault on multiple places. So...I think we're missing something.

I doubt it was a large portion. Probably ~1-2 Centuriae at most judging by the amount of Legionaries stationed on the western side of the river before the battle (which is ~1 Centuria). And remember, from dialogue with Caesar and Lanius we know that the Dam is the Legion's main objective. Also, remember that the Legion's goal for setting up camps in Cottonwood Cove and Nelson was simply to demoralize the NCR, so that's likely what the goal of the attacks during the Second Battle is, except it is more focused on panicking the NCR leaders while demoralizing their fighting force. (this turns the NCR's radio system, their technology, against them.)

Let me put it this way.

There is a forest filled with unicorns somewhere on the planet. You may say "prove it," to which I can say "prove there isn't!11!"
This is exactly what YOU are doing. That goes against all logic, because you're requiring me to scour the entire planet and catalog every location on Earth and make SURE there isn't a unicorn forest. And even when I come back, you can just claim "you missed it, check again!11!" On the other hand, to answer the question "prove it," you need only to point at the unicorn forest.
Same philosophy here. I'm asking you to prove Oliver has a backup plan, you're saying "prove he doesn't!11!!" Uhhh, HOW? I've played this game multiple times and I've never seen a single piece of evidence in game that suggests Oliver is a brilliant leader with a plan B and an ability to adapt. I can't SHOW you evidence because the evidence is the non-existence of the evidence YOU should be presenting. Hence, why I sit here and ask YOU to present evidence. YOU have the burden of proof in this, not me. YOU are trying to prove a positive, I am trying to prove a negative.
The person who's trying to prove the existence of something has the burden of proof. You will never hear a murder trial where the accused claims the victim had a pistol and was about to shoot it, the accused is asked to prove the victim had a pistol, the accused responds with "prove he didn't1!!1" and then the entire court says "whelp, he's got us there. Guess he's innocent afterall. Lunch anyone?"


Another thing, this is a piece of literature. Statements made by characters in game are basically intended to be taken as fact UNLESS there's evidence to the contrary. For example, Lanius' bio is a case where there's evidence of the contrary. We don't know his true story because the developers purposefully provided us with info that seems to be self-contradicting, suggesting there's myths about Lanius floating about.
Oliver? There's not a SINGLE opinion suggesting Oliver is awesome and he's got this. There's several suggesting he has no clue what he's doing and there's several opinions and in-game actions that show examples of the Legion having their [censored] together whereas the NCR just sits about with their thumb up their ass and acts surprised when they get beaten. Why would the devs design their work of literature this way unless they were trying to get the message across that Oliver is ineffective and the Legion did their homework? They wouldn't, every in-game opinion voiced by a character has a purpose, and they all seem to point towards the NCR and Oliver being ineffective whereas the Legion is pro at waging war.

And one of the issues the NCR has, suggested by in-game opinions, actions etc. is that Oliver isn't flexible. He's willing to throw away lives while focusing solely on glory, is focused only on showing off his Heavy Troopers and outshining Hanlon, and has presented nothing but a basic defensive positioning at the dam. Countless NPCs (House, Ulysses, Caesar, and possibly Graham and some random NCR vets, unsure of those last two) suggest that there's no way Oliver would ever be able to match such an ingenius tactic as the one presented by Chief Hanlon, and thus the NCR may fall because the wrong guy is in charge this time due to a corrupt government and chain of command. The NCR was literally on full retreat up until Hanlon pulled that idea out of his ass, with only the 1st recon and the NCR Rangers still standing. Had Hanlon not been there, let's face it: NCR would've lost the First battle. At least, that's the implication I draw from it.

Well remember that one Centuriae is 100 men so it's still not a small number. Either way, the NCR at the Dam is screwed. If they don't die from the complete swarm of Legionaries coming from the Intake Pipes, they'll die from many of the regular soldiers losing so much morale from the Emergency Radio broadcasts that they'll drop their weapons and run.

Except I'm not arguing for the existence of anything beyond a glimmer of thought in Oliver's head. You're just insisting that since Oliver reacts a certain way when confronted with the Legion campaign in the Mojave in the game he is completely incapable of reacting any other way to different circumstances and I have to prove that Oliver isn't a dunce so stupid he would have trouble putting his pants on in the morning let alone being commissioned. Using your logic if the NCR would just go on the offensive the Legion would be screwed since in game we never see they have any plans for a defensive strategy and are therefore incapable of ever formulating one in response to different circumstances. That of course would be idiotic. That or you're confusing strategy with Oliver's obvious tactical flaws and rigidity at the battle itself.

Presumably if a Legion army started driving out from Cottonwood Cove Oliver wouldn't just sit at the Dam with his thumb up his ass wondering what to do.


That's certainly an interesting way to interpret literature. I didn't know we should assume every character is a raisonneur unless they say something that is demonstrably wrong. There is little reason to believe House, a man with no military training, a well known superiority complex and who has no actual experience with anyone in the NCR military is qualified to pass judgement about Oliver's strategy at the Dam. Again you have yet to confront the fact that massing troops at the Dam was the correct response to the fact that the Legion is going to launch a major attack on the Dam that will determine the entire campaign.


For the last time I'm not suggesting Oliver is either awesome or has the situation in the Mojave under control. Under his command the NCR is going to lose. But they won't because Oliver's strategy is wrong. All evidence indicates its right and smug comments from armchair generals with ego complexes doesn't change that. They'll lose because his tactical management of the actual battle is abysmal. Not because amassing troops at the Dam at the expense of basically everything else for which he's criticized was the wrong decision.


Tactically no he's not at all. He mismanages the battle at Hoover Dam. But that's not strategy. For the last time all I'm saying is Oliver's strategy is not wrong or stupid. It is in fact an effective response to the Legion's plans which overwhelmingly rely on seizing the Dam. By putting every soldier he can spare in place there, not heavily responding to Legion provocations like Cottonwood Cove or Nelson, and sacrificing less valuable territory throughout the Mojave he puts himself in the best position possible to frustrate the Legion's plans. Then he bungles the battle.

As for the first battle you should talk to Hanlon again. Oliver's troopers never lost the Dam. They held the line until the Rangers started picking off Legion officers provoking Graham into sending the veterans in early disrupting his own formations. The troopers then pulled back to the side walkways to allow the veterans to push past them into the prepared trap at Boulder City. The troopers who were still on the Dam then counterattacked and routed the Legion forces left behind so it's no surprise that Oliver has faith in the staying power of his men the second time around. But it was a dangerous plan and something the Legion isn't going to fall for twice. If the Dam is lost this time Caesar is smart enough to just consolidate his position instead of running into an ambush. And once the Dam is taken the NCR's one big advantage against the Legion is gone and the Mojave with it. Holding the Dam at all costs is pretty unavoidable this time around.

Do you really need to know how to shoot a gun to create tactics? I don't like House for my reasons but he's still an incredibly respectable guy. Mr. House, with the help of the Courier, completely destroys Legion and NCR with his tactics. House uses numbers and his brains. He respects Hanlon because he defeated an overwhelmingly powerful army without being like Oliver and needlessly sacrificing lives to achieve the same goal.

The tactic itself is fine...if you're a 10 year old playing a flash game. Let's look at this from the Legion's perspective. The Dam is hard to take but they still managed to catch the NCR off guard, just like in the First Battle but even more so. Legion forces mount an assault behind NCR lines at the Dam.

Whoops...NCR is flanked and demoralized. Even if Oliver didn't know about the intake attacks, he knows about Nelson and Cottonwood Cove. How can a General be so demonstrably stupid to ignore two of the largest Legion camps that passed the borders of Hoover Dam and work that into his defense plan?

I simply don't understand the purpose in objectively defending Oliver's base tactic.

Sure, the basic tactic is fine, but since when were wars won on basic tactics alone? That's like saying that an old run-down car isn't as bad as it seems because the transmission still works perfectly, but wtf the engine is toast, all four tires are flat and the axle is completely busted. That's great and all, but that's not gonna get the car running.

Same thing here. Maybe Oliver's initial unit positioning is fine, but that doesn't mean the man can adapt, correctly anolyze and predict Caesar's movement OR that the plan to wait on the Legion was smart either. (not saying they SHOULD'VE attacked, I'm just trying to make the point that ONE thing done correctly does not mean that everything else is automatically correct too)

When I said training I meant something more like staff college or field and command experience rather than grunt training. House may be a brilliant guy but he's no soldier. House's victory come down to having an overwhelming force in place after the Legion has been crushed and the NCR badly battered. He doesn't really demonstrate any real military skill nor does he need to.


Christ for the last time there is a difference between tactics and strategy. Let's make this as simple as possible okay?

Oliver's tactics=BAD.
Oliver's strategy=GOOD.

Stop arguing about tactics. I agree with you.

He ignores the Legion camps at Cottonwood and Nelson because they're just diversions and ultimately if he can hold the Dam they won't matter and can be mopped up later. If he loses the Dam he's lost Aggressive counterattacks or trying to defend everywhere would play into the Legion's hands.

But how can it not matter?

Surely the loss of Colonel Hsu or Chief Hanlon at MacCarren or Camp Golf would cause trouble for the NCR operations in the region.
Surely a strengthened presence of Legion troops and camps from Forlorn Hope all the way down to the south at Cottonwood Cove would be bad news for the NCR.

Have you ever heard of a Pyrrhic victory? This is exactly what Caesar has them set up for.

Well see you say that but the fact is the one time we know Oliver did have a Legion campaign to confront he did correctly anolyze and predict Caesar's movements and adopted an approach that according to the evidence did give him the best chance of defeating the Legion. Maybe he could've adopted a more aggressive approach. We don't know. It's also entirely possible, and I would say more supported by the evidence in-game that that would've just wasted his army needlessly and made it even easier for Caesar to cross the Colorado.

Oliver's not going to be in the running for great generals of history but he's not completely useless.



Because if you have to choose between risking two support bases or the position that will determine the entire campaign you risk the former. Oliver doesn't have unlimited resources. He has to prioritize certain locations over others and according to the evidence he prioritized the right one.


Yes but not as much as the loss of the Dam. And the Legion is not going to be able to maintain those positions west of the Colorado if they don't take the Dam.


It's not exactly Pyrrhic if they can maul Caesar's main army and hold the line along the Colorado. I mean if the whole attack on the Dam was just a giant feint to enable a devastating raid on the NCR's rear that'd be brilliant. But that's not what Caesar is doing. He's heavily committing the vast majority of his army to taking the Dam. If he loses at the Dam his army suffers grievous losses and the NCR, while battered, is definitely going to come out the winner in the Mojave.

100 men tired out from walking all the way from Cottonwood Cove to McCarran, The Strip, et cetera are still not much of a fighting force. They are most likely a demoralizing effort and nothing more. When you consider that Caesar has ~1800 men amassed at the Dam and only a couple of Centuria on the western side of the River, it is pretty clear that his strategy is to overrun the Dam while sending a few contubernia to each of the NCR's main military strongholds in order to turn the NCR's radio technology against them.

"Know yourself and know your enemy and you shall not fear the outcome of a hundred battles."
Literally the most famous line in the most essential book that generals need to read. Heck, even if you didn't read it, everyone should know that quote. Apparently, Oliver can't do that right.

Again, doesn't matter that NCR has a lot of soldiers there. It's ineffective AND Legion is at their throats. They specialize in close quarter engagements, especially the recruits. Where are they? Places with close quarters and so small that the NCR can't kill from a distance like they're accompanied to.

This situation is more like two legitimate states declaring all-out war on each other on each other's land. Vietnam was nothing like that.

If the NCR and Legion go head-to-head, NCR would win. In imperial conflicts, higher tech wins almost always.

I can quote Sun Tzu too. And my quote will actually be relevant to the discussion rather than just more pointing out that Oliver is not a particularly good general. "Should the enemy strengthen his van, he will weaken his rear, should he strengthen his rear; he will weaken his van, should he strengthen his left, he will weaken his right; should he strengthen his right, he will weaken his left. If he sends reinforcements everywhere, he will everywhere be weak."

Oliver knows the one place the Legion will attack in force. It is the one place where he knows Caesar will commit to a stand-up battle that can determine the entire campaign. So he correctly concentrates everyone he can spare there while risking less important positions rather than scattering troops all over the Mojave to respond to minor Legion attacks.

Choosing not to fight at the Dam because it's close quarters would be incredibly stupid. As for the Dam being "close quarters" what? Most of the fighting takes place either on top of the Dam or in those wide-open power plant rooms. There's relatively little fighting in the cramped corridors.

To be honest, I think they would be at a deadlock in the case of total war. The costs being too great for both sides.

But battle for the Mojave? Probably NCR

Oliver's general strategy svcks balls because it's purely defensive. There was no reason the NCR couldn't of struck at Nelson, The Fort, Cottonwood and their Southern Camps at the same time. On a tactical and logistical level Oliver also fails. He could get the whole damn Rangers and NCR's power armored units to the Mojave but he couldn't get one damn mortar launcher? Seriously? All they need is one of those bad boys..no [censored] that they literally used nukes on the Powder Ganger camp. Why the hell couldn't ONE [censored] Ranger in sleath boy mode just plant those in the Fort..no [censored] that just launch the damn things....

Honestly Oliver is such a bad general just to cover the plot holes...