This topic is about if NCR and the Legion tried to go all out and conquer one another, not just the Mojave is it not? Guerrilla warfare is not used to conquer, it is used in the hopes that those that are tying to conquer you will get tired and go away.

If they win. By the way, you're also forgetting the South Vietnamese, the Soviets, and the Chinese. It wasn't just two parties involved, lol. IIRC, you can pretty much not interfere with the course of the battle a whole lot in the Inde and House endings, and the NCR still defeats the Legion and makes it all the way to the Legates Camp (although you already killed/coerced Lanius. But well, he wouldn't have survived anyway from either the NCR or the Securitrons) the only difference from the NCR ending is that House/the Courier shows up with the Securitron Army afterwards to either kill/coerce Oliver. In three out of four endings, Caesar's little mini-Tet blows up in his face, I think that's enough evidence to conclude that approach was flawed. Small attacks everywhere by weak and unrelaible allies are hardly any better than sending a nineteen man sapper team to take down the massive US embassy in Saigon.

I specifically stated that the South Vietnamese, Soviets, and Chinese aren't all anxiously waiting the outcome of the battle to decide the fate of their entire nation. Boomers, Khans, etc. all are.

In House's ending, he couldn't have done anything without the Courier and same with Yes Man. Saying Caesar's approach is flawed because he didn't see HUNDREDS OF SECURITRONS pouring from some unremarkable looking weather station doesn't follow. Caesar prepares for what's reasonable and in the case of House and Yes Man, House could've just as easily killed the NCR. House wants NCR as customers.

Yes Man? It's literally a clone of the House endgame. Only difference is the dialogue and the choice to blow up the Dam's generators. The endings are different but the Battle itself plays the exact same.

Small attacks? Let's say Courier helps nobody and just sits at home drinking Nuka-Cola:

Forlorn Hope falls to Legion. Camp Golf falls to Legion. Monorail to Vegas bombed by Legion. Omertas attack the Strip, even if they fail, cause a diversion and bomb the Embassy. Camp McCarran is attacked by the Fiends. Freeside breaks out into riots. Novac falls to Legion.

That's not small attacks. Caesar's Legionaries aren't all concentrated at the Dam. They take all these places while the Battle goes on. Yes, WHILE the Battle's going on. The NCR emergency radio says so.

It doesn't say who invades who, and it doesn't say they just meet on a battlefield for a battle royale winner take all.

So, why would Legion abandon tactics that work? If attempting to lure NCR into a mistake, they would continue to do more and more. Eventually the NCR will have to attack. You can sit there and say, well the NCR will call the bluff, and then a WMD goes off and wipes out Shady Sands.

Legion does not have to invade to be an aggressor. Also, Legion can use guerrilla tactics during an invasion. They just have to avoid engaging NCR forces conventionally. It isn't easy, and it can be a gamble, but it can work, and it can cause the NCR to make a fatal mistake.

Benny is still a factor. Due to the courier showing up he rushes to the fort and gets caught. If the courier didn't come he could have proceeded with whatever his plan may be. So Legion could be out doing whatever while hundreds of securitrons flood out pf the weather station. Then the legion is in as much trouble as the NCR.

The NCR has the means to wipe out the Legion in a front on assault, but that's not the Legions only form of attack, unlike NCR they have a very destructive guerilla force known as the Frumentarii which have already cost the NCR valuable points likeCamp Searchlight. The Legions attack force is also significantly better trained than the NCRs and that shows with captures like Nelson.
Vegas would have been under legion control already if it wasn't for a reckless Burned Mans final rush tactic.

I think an all out war with NCR and Legion would be like the American-Vietnam war. Legion would be able to hold out and cause the NCR pain where it hurts but the NCR could never full kill every Legion soldier (Some Legionnaires are part of the NCR (Captain Curtis for instance))

How would've Benny gotten into the Lucky 38 and the Fort? House already knows Benny betrayed him so the former is out. And Caesar catches Benny anyways so the latter is out.

He seems to be pretty confident in his abilities, so he must have some sort of plan. He even knows that he needs to kill House and install Yes man, so there must be some plan to that instead of just hoping for the best, and like I said Benny got caught by Caesar because he was scared of the courier and became reckless.

Or he's just cocky. House would probably just kill Benny by telling someone else to do it. Besides, House can see everything in the Lucky 38. There's no way to sneak around in the Lucky 38 without killing House. And Caesar says that Benny got caught because he didn't change his hair style.

Actually no, as much as he rushed in because of the Courier it wasn't the Couriers fault, it was his inability to let is hair down, literally.
Caesar tells you the only reason he got caught was 1) because his stealth boy ran out (Think Benny actually said this). 2) because of his gelled hair he was easily noticed amoung other legionnaires, evenwhile wearing their uniform

They do want to wipe eachother out. The Legion are trying and almost succeding but it would take their whole army. NCR is just trying to advance and defend not march their whole army into Arizona like Caesar is trying to do. Legion soldiers are tougher and can easily take down one trooper sometimes even two. I have witnessed the NCR trooper combat skills and i wouldnt call it skills. No wonder the Powder Gangers were [censored] them.

If there is no courier why would he rush up there in the first place? Maybe if he had time he would have brought two stealth boys, or wore a legionairre helmet. He rushed up there because of the courier, so no courier means no rushing up there. And if he manages to activate the army, but has no control over them, House will use them, and that could be worse for the Legion.

I actually wonder how close to the bunker you can get using a stealth boy from outside Cotton Cove.
It wouldn't be worse for the Legion, well it would, but House wouldn't use them there and then since it isn't his calculated plan. He'd need Legion to chop down NCRs numbers in the region before pushing them both out.

Judging by the first battle of Hoover Dam, the Legion's main weaknesses were that: (1.). they are exceptionally dependent on NCOs such as Centurions to order the rest of the troops, ergo the NCR snipers shot them and the ordinary Legion soldiers couldn't adapt, and (2.). the general battle strategy of the Legion seems to be to charge in and keep going forward no matter what, hence the NCR dropped back, prepared a massive trap at Boulder City I think, and the Legion charged straight into it. Winning tactics from the NCR, used by armies throughout history.

I fail to see how the Legion have learnt from the first battle, so all they would have as a chance to win is guerrilla tactics, sabotage etc. It's good in the short term but you can't win a war like that. It'd be annoying to the NCR, but no more than that, especially because any terrorism tactics will more than likely lead to a massive NCR crackdown, especially because they won't want to let the Legion off the hook again.

American-Vietnam War, the Vietnamese won that using guerilla tactics.
The taliban have withstood several decades againist both Russian and then America/NATO using exactly guerilla tactics..
The IRA are another example, though they 'disbanded' and didn't get what they wanted they never actually lost necause of their tactics.

I fail to see your logic in guerilla tactics not working long term or in winning a war.


- Also request the title gets corrected, no one in game is called Cesar

True, but guerrilla tactics are a beauty. U ever seen one Legion raiding party with 2 recruits and one of those guys with the wierd hats going up against one NCR squad with three troopers? Well the skills of the troopers are certainly not the best i can tell you that. Legion can win. But i would think that NCR would win cause of what they got. But not cause of the Legions guerrilla tactics.

Did you even read the last 3 pages about the Vietnam war?

Guerilla warefare isn't used to conquer another nation. It is used as a self defense tactic in the hopes the invader will give up and go away. Vietnam relied alot on the American media siding with the Communists and they fully supported the North. With the American media backing the communists morale went to crap for the war and the public turned on their own soldiers.

That kind of crap will not work in a war between the Legion and the NCR because they wouldn't be letting the public see the war. There wouldn't be people back in NCR watching the war on the 5 O'clock news. No newspapers or radio reporters siding with the Legion against their own people.

Another thing about the Vietnam war is that America didn't feel threatened by Vietnam. It wasn't like Vietnamese tanks would be rolling dowing the streets in American cities if they didn't win in Vietnam. But the NCR's population would feel very threatened by the Legion. The NCR can use that fear to get the max amount of support for the war.

I am not surprised so many people don't know much about the Vietnam war. It was a very shameful thing that the population of the United States for the most part sided with the Communists and spit on their own troops, and those hippies later became the school teachers and decided not to teach the true facts. Just that America was bad and the commies were good. I live in Canada and I couldn't get away from it. I had a teacher who's father was an American hippie who came to Canada to avoid being drafted. He was trying to teach us alot of crap about that period of American history.

You don't need media to let ya know whattup when your soldiers never come home or the Legion assassinates the prez, or a wmd goes off in Shady Sands. Nothing to see here, move along.

This would be just like the U.S. Civil war. The north has higher technology & man power, while the south lacks technology & man power, but makes up for it with skilled soldiers. While the NCR has some skilled soldiers, they would still have a pretty good chance.

In the end technology & man power will always win. You can always see that in a battlefield & on a chess board.

The media really helps though. Troops being killed alot doesn't always reduce morale. If they are dying for some stupid hill that they have captured and given back to the enemy dozens of times than yeah that reduces morale. If those troops are fighting and dying against an enemy that is hell bent on killing and enslaving all of NCR, then those troops died as heros defending their very way of life. A WMD going of in Shady Sands would only boost the fight against the Legion. "Look what those monsters have done!" Taking out the president would have the same effect. Imagine if the Russian openly said "yeah we kill Kennedy what are you going to do about it?"

Well exactly. Is it enough to anger them into going on the offensive and allowing the Legion to use their guerrilla tactics? I think so, which is thus why the Legion could win. Really each side is one or two blunders away from losing, if the other side takes advantage of said blunder.

I doesn't seem like a smart tactic to have the NCR invade Legion territory and fight them using guerrila warefare. The NCR would be in control of most if not all Legion lands. All the slaves liberated and now helping the NCR find the Legion members.

It would be as if the Germans decided to just let the allies take over all of their territory and then fight them using guerrila warefare in the hope that they would win, and then be able to conquer the allies. It just doesn't make sense at all.

Guerilla warefare is used to make the enemy give up and go away. It isn't used to conquer. If the Legion start using guerrila warefare to fight the Legion, in my books they would have already lost. They might have a chance in getting the NCR to give up and go back home, but then they would be back right where they started. The people of NCR have reasons to support a war against the Legion. Their very lives are threatened by them. Heavy losses would be seen as necessary price of victory and they didn't die in some rice paddy thousands of miles away for no clear goals. They died fighting the mortal enemies of the NCR in NCR's backyard.

I think they mean the legion will use sabotage and sneak attacks to help them take over.. Like blowing a hole in the wall to let the legionaries through..

I wasn't sure if that is what they meant or not. Those aren't really guerrilla warfare tactics if they are used in an offensive way IMO. If they are going into NCR and blowing up things and killing people that is more of a terrorist tactic to pave the way for the main army.