You're acting magic isn't already enchanted arrows... except you decide what specific enchantments these glorified arrows will have.

What they are selling is an entirely new look and feel to magic, one that moves AWAY from the enchanted arrow feel that BOTH Morrowind and Oblivion showcased- even with spell making. I find it disingenuous of you to suggest that simply removing spell making would automatically turn an entirely new system into glorified enchanted arrows, when in fact the CURRENT system WITH spell making is closer to that.


Now, as for your "role playing" argument, it is a good one, but a spell creation spread sheet isn't the only possible way to have a role playing experience with magic. How do they do it in Fantasy novels? Is there a lot of spell making going on in those? No! But there is a lot of mystery and venturing through ancient catacombs, reading long forbidden and hidden books, deciphering long lost languages, on your way to discovery of ancient and dark magics.

In my opinion, THAT would be a FAR better experience than a spell creation spread sheet. Put the mystery back into it. Of course, obviously that probably isn't what Bethesda are doing here, but maybe we can see that in the future.


But anyway, I can't see how anyone would prefer a spell creation spread sheet to what I described above: a mage actually doing what a mage does in Fantasy novels: traveling to the remote Legendary Lost Libraries, discovering the Arcane of the Arcane, and then experimenting with new spells in some dark cave, necromancing ancient demons and the like. Clearly such things would require a great expansion of spells, and a very large change in direction, but what Bethesda is doing is at least a STEP toward that.



Right. That's not magic. That's not arcane. That's not Supernatural.

In an ideal world, I'd prefer to have spellmaking. But if spellmaking consists of "hmm, what effects should I put in THIS fireball" then count me out. That isn't good enough. If I had to choose between true variety and a really arcane feeling magic system, or the system we're used to with the ability to make various types of magic projectiles, I'd prefer the former.





How many of those millions are essentially redundant and soulless copies? You might as well get your 80 sided dice and go play Rifts...

Simply, all of us wizards won't buy the game if no spell making will exist and we will look for alternatives or wait mods until gamesas will put it back in.

Magic whitout spell creation is simply dumb. AND spell leveling is dumb too. Mages are nerds, they are the RPG version of software developers. Do what you want but don't take away options from us: that would be definetely your end.

I'd rather come up with magic on the fly rather than on a spreadsheet. Alchemy is the science of TES. Magic is the magic of TES. Swordsmen don't look at a sheet of paper, determening the stats of their sword and how good they are at using it. Mages should be the same. Training out in the field to find out what works best, rather than sitting behind a desk crunching numbers.

Before I make my final decition, I'd like to play Skyrim and see its magic system in action. Cant' know anything for sure till its in my hands, but I'm looking forward to what I've been told.

In my opinion, the "mystery and venturing through ancient catacombs, reading long forbidden and hidden books, deciphering long lost languages, on your way to discovery of ancient and dark magics" is a commonality shared with all the "classes". That is not a uniquely Mage experience. Think of it this way. Bethesda has added crafts like smithing because they felt it was important for immersion. To put it simply, spell making is the Mage's smithing.

if it means we finally get Sprays, proper PBAOE, Glyphs, and Chargeables....than to hell with spell creation. Those should have been in a long time ago are way more important than fiddling with damage numbers and magnitude, something that can easily be determined by your skill lvl and charge time.

The question is, can all spells be used in all forms? Can you make a heal rune that heals you when it's triggered. Can you dual wield a healing spell? etc... On target stuff is easy as well as on self, we've had it in MW and OB. The flamethrower: do you have a choice of duration or is it just as long as you hold the button down? If you are doing constant damage as you hold down the button the only thing duration would do is unnecessarily increase the magicka cost per second. Assuming for sake of arguement, your flamethrower 3pts for 2 sec. would have a higher cost than just a 3pts. 1 sec (instant) effect just like in OB/MW. If a flamethrower spell just tics off damage/sec your higher cost effect with duration would just be wasteful. I don't know how the system works yet. Depending on how the game knows what form of spell you want to use (target, rune, flamethrower, two-handed, aoe) will affect how complicated spellmaking would be to use or implement in the game.



If certain spells are hardcoded to only be able to be used in certain forms this will also pose a problem for spellmaking. We just don't know how the devs have made it. If it is impossible, because of hardcoding, to cast Detect Life in any form, but "on self" with a duration and area/range trying to combine it with an on target, rune, etc... spell would cause conflicts that might effect gameplay/crashes.



I don't see the connection in spellmaking and enchantment. As far as I know, no matter how you enchant a weapon or armor or whatever, you don't have an option for flamethrower, two-handed, rune, on target effects like you can with spells. Thus there would be no conficts because most likely all weapons will be "on strike" and items would have constant effects like clothing, rings, etc...did in OB. Though I do agree with you on the one spreadsheety thing ok for one, but not the other.

I really do wish we have spellmaking. I'm just saying that with the information we have it is difficult to say if Bethesda is just being lazy on this subject (though I don't really think they are. they seem to be working really hard on making this game great) or if because of how the engine/code is designed there may be real conflicts that need to be addressed and other features that still need to be worked on makes it less likely for time to be put aside for spellmaking.

One thing I would find interesting if they do have spellmaking is an invisibility rune. would be a good way to lure a monster (if others are around that you don't want to aggro) to an advantageous area to fight. Lay down an invisiblity rune. let your magicka replenish, then fire at the monster. it runs to attack you, but triggers the invis right before it gets to you. It stands there like, "what the hell. he was right here". You move further back and do the same until you get the monster right where you want it to take it on, them BLAMO!

-1

Think about what you're saying - Sprays, Glyphs, and all the new features would make Spellmaking even more awesome than it already was!

Imagine combining Fire and Lightning sprays into a lightning spray-fire flamethrower. How about combining a paralyze rune with a lightning rune?


The heart of that matter is that Bethesda, as good as they are, cannot possiblly make up for the void left by spellmaking if they take it out. It's hands-down one of the best things about TES games for fans of the magic playstyle.

Now, they could restrict spellmaking until you're very high up in the mages guild - it's believable for an upper-crust of the mages guild to craft his own spells.

I just hope the magic\enchantment system isn't crippled like with OB.

Morrowind has much better magic, for example, you can actually collide spells in MW. Ie, you can block an incoming spell, with your own spell, it's great for fending off high level mages. That's not getting into things, like, slowfall, jump, levitation, constant effect summons, etc,. (Also, the spell visuals were better, a 100ft AOE spell, actually visually covered that amount of area.. Ie, you could make big huge explosions, and they were much more satisfying to watch, and wield.)

I also hated all the artificial limits on enchantments (ie, 20pts max or whatever), I understand a need for balance, but, you're ruining being a high level mage, put a friggin level cap on it, make it really expensive, anything, don't just remove it entirely, or cripple it, etc. (Sounds like a job for that enchanting skill you removed..)

I don't know, that's my main concerns, other than that, the game looks good.

(A lot of these concerns may be answered already, but I've been trying to avoid Skyrim info, mainly because, it's a long way from release, and I don't want to get too excited this early.. Makes the wait even worse.)

Now try to set that up in a way that makes you feel like you're harnessing mystic, arcane energies, using your skill and experience to master such a strong spell, rather than selecting numbers from a list of effect templates and paying for it like you're at a grocery store check-out.

Easy.

==============
Spellmaking Menu
==============

Name: Firey Flash(?)

Effect: Fire Damage
Type: Spray

Effect: Shock Damage
Type: Bolt

Button: Create Spell

---

The damage, etc, can be based on your destruction skill, level, perhaps a bit of luck, etc,. Though, I would prefer they just had sliders again, so I can, you know, actually have some control over my spells. :shrug:

---

Also, I think the character naming system loses it's "magic", I mean, it's just a text prompt, we should scrap that, and have it just randomly assign names to new characters. /sarcasm

Also, we could ditch half the character creation process, just have a simple, mage, fighter, thief style, choice. (No birthsigns.)

Then, there is the issue of inventory clutter, I suggest, making anything the player picks up disintegrate, problem solved!

I'm sorry, I can't come up with any other asinine idea's, I'll let Bethesda handle it from here.

I OK with no spellmaking in game if Skyrim will have
1) Spell making in CS with script effect and magic system isn't completely hardcoded and uneditable.
Todd says magic was to “spread-sheety” have he see mods by this authors?
http://www.youtube.com/user/xilverbulet
http://www.youtube.com/user/pjyelton4476
http://www.youtube.com/user/GDarknight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgkE0b88jJg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTOynB6Z-Rw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LLGoyUMX2I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngtpuMnQQEA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z011GdMJEts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULeqn-A_CTg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeufDh6ADJg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRvLQzJ4vGM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGV57Q8GOqM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2tLUPwRrnM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IsXqcUlv_g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XK5A1EiFEw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHz7LcW2NRA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewF4gYB2c1s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VGXm74gSkg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpsETvKjenw
This spells doesn't spectacular at all?

Classical magic system with script effect allow create really unique spells or re-create any spells from other games with magic,
I think making completely uncustomiziable spells wrong idea, even if they will be completely unique, magic must be opened for modding.

2) New Spellsystem is Dynamic magic system where all PREMADE spells was overhauled, they have different customizable structure with script effect, thats still allow unique animations and FX, they are leveled by perks and work like spell making on fly in game trough:

- Charging thats change Magnitude, Area, Duration and Magicka Cost of spell thats will eliminate spellbook cluttering, add more strategy and variable tactics into magic combat, will make more signifucant difference between pure mages and warriors who try use magic without additional training.
I already describe benefits of such implementation in this posts
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1172799-we-need-spellmaking-in-skyrim/page__view__findpost__p__17305802
http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1172799-we-need-spellmaking-in-skyrim/page__view__findpost__p__17309686

- Context sensitive targeting when spell effect can be changed (on ground, on distant target, on close target, on touch, on self, can be toggled or drain Magicka for sustain) and according to target type (activator or object, player, actor hostile, actor neutral or friendly, actor type undead, daedra, creature, NPC )
Thats will save spare inputs buttons on consoles, reduce again spellbook cluttering, make magic work in more elegant way and improve roleplaying

3) NPC actually will use all spells and magic effect was overhauled to be more usable then before
for example
Feather spell in compare with fortify strength its looks bad, but if Feather effect become combined with slowfall there will be difference also if feather have smaller cost then fortify strength difference between spells become better and Feather become useful, and if it will combined with water walk or levitation will become truly useful, enemy mages can continue pursuit and solve obstacles between them and %PCname like rocks and walls also they can maneuver without backward strafe penalty, during levitation like a lich in oblivion thats will make them more interesting enemies then before and solve problems of AI pathfinding.

Light good utility spell for marking enemy and lightup dark places in forward just need some improvements, for first Night and dungeons must be darker then before (thats will make all light source useful not only Light spell) for second combine it with blind effect (was in Morrowind but removed from Oblivion) on target, light spell can do damage to vampires
Difference between Light spell and Nighteye will be better in oblivion light source penalize stealth no torches or light spells when sneaking around so use Nighteye if you want sneak, but how about add this to NPC also, why this apply to %PCname? NPC mages can use light spell and detect life for searching sneaky characters, but NPC also must sneak around and try to critical stab so detect life and light spells will be useful player also.

And short duration spell ward will be included they must have different implementation to be more useful thats can be very fun since again will make more visible difference between Archmage and mage apprentices powerful mages will have large Magicka reserves so they can sustain powerful shield spells (enemy mages also must use thats) while apprentices will use more adrenalin fueled spell shields wards thats work like timed blocks and parry
Such changes very well work with spell charging since it will actually drain Magicka fast, spell shield can be modular spell when mage will add new protective segments trough perks

Most such features already done in Oblivion by mods, developers thats have full access to engine can do it even better or at last leave possibility for modders for improvements.
Chargeable Spells
http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=27746
Audacious Magery
http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=25844
Duke Patrick's Combat Magic II
http://tesalliance.org/forums/index.php?/files/file/780-duke-patricks-combat-magic-ii-duke-patricks-incursion-into-fortress-of-fear/
Spellshields
http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=21629
Doc Magic
http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=23813

To an outsider or a novice, any skill might appear esoteric, mysterious, and magical. That difference separates the pro from the hobbyist.
I would imagine there's the hedge mage or witch of the wilds type, with natural talent, no training, and a high mortality rate.

Then there's the schooled mage, who approaches magic like a craft or science. TES lore and in-game books show that there are thousands of years of research. A pro will want to know how things work.

Take a look at diving/decompression tables in real life. Yeah, they take away some of the "mystery of the sea", but divers don't complain.

I think the fantasy novels you reference also have one thing in common with each other. They tell the story from the view of an outside observer. That's deliberate, to create a sense of wonder. That might work if you're a fighter or thief who just wants to throw a few fireballs, but if you're a mage, you're on the inside.

Yeah, because that invokes the sensation of using your deep arcane knowledge and skill to harness mystic forces in a way no mere mortal can muster.

Exactly, it's not about the mystery of magic, it's about unlocking those mysteries, and learning to control it.

That's what all the sliders represent, your current control(mastery) of magic, etc,..

I really hate this idea, and hope there is some terrible misunderstanding, spellmaking had better exist in some form in the final product, is all I'm saying..

----



If it makes you feel better, we could add a cutscene.? (Have the character scratching his beard, thinking real hard, etc,.)

Yes, but that doesn't mean it has to be presented in such a mundane and controlled way. Regardless of the amount of research put into it, it's still magic, not physics or some other school of science. Even those that study it do not fully understand it.

Mundane and controlled is being stuck with the vanilla spells in Skyrim. Just because it affects your intangible sensibilities, you're arguing that the freedom and creativity of mixing and matching new spells of our own creation should be taken from us. The pros of spellmaking far outweigh the cons, for the vastt majority of us.

How's this for "preserving the sense of wonder":

> Equip some sort of spell-combining item in your right hand, such as a blank spell scroll.
> Cast the effects you want to combine with your left hand. The item absorbs those effects.
> Activate the item. It casts the combined spell once and adds it to your spell set.

Sorry, but are you even trying to make a point any more? At this point, you're just responding to things with little barrages of non sequiturs that seem to roughly translate into "Nuh UH!" What, for instance, does the assertion that "those that study it do not fully understand it" have to do with the topic at hand?

Go ahead. Explain precisely how it is that removing spellmaking will serve to "invoke the sensation of using your deep arcane knowledge and skill to harness mystic forces in a way no mere mortal can muster." Anybody can hurl rhetoric that at least gives the superficial appearance of countering an argument. If you believe that removing spellmaking is for the better, then explain precisely how and why it will be for the better.

Wouldn't this defeat the purpose of DW'ing spells when you can just combine everything?

thats what two hands are for

Speak for yourself, man. I'm always a mage, yet I would be okay with a lack of spell creation IF the magic system was something similar to what I find in generic Fantasy lore (despite the lack of spell creation in most Fantasy novels, I don't find the magic dumb, nor did I find magic dumb in the first FF, Dragon Warrior, etc).



It is not shared by all classes, at least not what I'm trying to describe. All classes go exploring in dungeons, true, to find whatever they happen to see there. But a mage will be looking for specific legendary spell books, a mage will master long forgotten languages that other classes CANNOT, and so such a thing would be useless to them (except to sell).

Of course, in order to that, more dreaded "realism" would have to be added => if you don't put significant work into willpower/intelligence, you won't be able to use such items. I would be FOR that kind of specialization.



Finally, again I am not against spellmaking. The question is about a TRADEOFF- it's not Bethesda saying "removing spellmaking makes things better, herp."
It's about how they wanted to change the system, versus what they had to give up timewise to do it.

I am willing to trade spread-sheet spellmaking for a much more lively magic system, one that actually follows the patterns of Fantasy lore. We apparently cannot have both, due to limited resources of Bethesda. You like your magic to be concrete and number driven, I like mine to be Arcane and mysterious, thus, given the tradeoff, I (and others) agree with Bethesda and you (and others) do not.

Now, many of the spellmaking supporters in this thread are failing to understand that there may not be enough time for the game to have BOTH a new livelier magic system AND spell creation. It's a tradeoff. Either pick livelier magic or pick spreadsheet spell making.

I disagree. It helps keep the mystery when all the details aren't all laid out to be played with willy-nilly.


I was responding to the idea that those who study magic understand it and can approach it in a scientific manner, so it's logical for spellmaking to be presented in a similar way. My assertion is to show how that idea is not the way it works, and so shouldn't be presented that way.


Skyrim is not just removing spellmaking. It may be best to stop thinking of it that way. Skyrim has a new magic system for which a spellmaking mechanic has not been designed. Spellmaking was lost, but not because they just ripped it out to get fans upset... it was lost because it wasn't added back in with the new system. anology: you have a car that has an FM radio, then you buy a new car that has no FM radio. Did you remove the FM radio? No, it was never there in the first place.

I'm all for them adding back spellmaking when it can be done in a manner consistent with the feel and tone they're going for with magic, but they apparently don't feel they can do it given the amount of time they've got to work on it. I'd rather not have spellmaking than to have spellmaking feel artificial and tacked on, especially if it's to the detriment of balanced gameplay.

I'd much rather...saying this again...have spellmaking being done out on the feild. Skill level, with lets say Destruction, would be so much funner to be tweeked out in the field. Not every single spell should be the same. No mage is perfect, some times that fire ball should be stronger, or some times it should be a little weaker. It shouldn't be an exact science. Its bloody magic. The higher the destruction spell, the quicker that fireball charges and the less magicka it takes to get to a specific damage amount.

A noob mage may have to sit there for a few seconds channeling all 50 points of his magicka into a fireball, getting it to say 25 damage. A master mage can just tap the fireball button, putting 10 magicka into the attack to get that 25 damage.

Want a fire and lightning spell? Just use two hands. Want a rune that causes fire damage and paralizes the enemy? Put one rune over another(I hope we can put one and only one rune over another one.)

This is TES, where we get better at something by doing that something. Magic should be the same way. You get better at using magic by using magic, and you make new spells on the fly by using the spells you have uniquely.

You don't swing swords by clicking mouse buttons either, should they ditch that as well?

Goblins, trolls, wraiths, etc, don't really exist, so I guess those are out too, because, you can't present things in a way, that doesn't mesh with how it "really" works.

How do you buy a spell? I mean it's magic, it's not tangible, but they sell them like fruit at the market? I'd rather see spell buying removed, than spellmaking, it makes more sense. (I get the fact, that they "taught" you the spell, but, in one second? Not much mystery to uncover, if that's all it takes to learn a spell.)

Spell buying is a way worse offender to any point you've made than spellmaking will ever be, yet, it's the only means available in Skyrim for attaining spells(minus quest, etc,.)..