From what I've read/watched so far, Skyrim may have a radically different spell system from Oblivion and Morrowind. Instead of spellmaking and basic effects with different amounts (Touch/Target/Self 1-100) etc, it looks like Beth have gone for http://download2.zenimax.com/akqacms/files/tes/screenshots/SkillsMenu_wLegal.jpg. They've done this, apparently, to put the mystery back in magic - putting the stats under the hood, so to speak.

From the Nerdtrek podcast with Todd;

'The thing that we DON’T like about the previous systems that we’ve done, is it becomes very “spread-sheety.” It takes the magic out of magic. There’s a bigger emphasis (in Skyrim) on how the magic physically acts. Just a spell like fire; there are different spells for how the fire moves. Like putting down a rune that explodes when you walk over it. Or fire you can spray that lingers on the ground, like you’re spraying a wall, and you can spray the ceiling. Or fire that travels like a flamethrower out of your hands. Or a fireball that you charge up and throw and it explodes at a distance. So our main goal is to make magic feel like this arcane powerful thing. And once it goes into a spreadsheet in the game where you can just say I want something at this distance and this power, it removes the illusion of like how this stuff actually works. So we have some ideas of ways around that, but we don’t know where those are going to go yet.'

I like this sense of mystery. And the idea that these spells can have exciting scripted effects that, at higher levels, I imagine will have far more awe-inspiring effects worthy of powerful mage (I always hated the way my 100 damage asskicking firestorm looked exactly the same as my level 1 apprentice sparkspell I toasted mudcrabs with.)

On the other hand, the Elder Scrolls is all about freeform play in an open world - and I always felt the crazy combinations you could concoct yourself were a part of that. The strategic options spellmaking offers you are diverse. But then again, the spells Todd describes in the interview feel like they could make gameplay more varied than me mixing up effects on spreadsheet. I guess set spells will be much easier to balance gameplaywise for Beth too.

It seems like at the time I write this, Beth may not have settled one way or the other on spellmaking yet. So what are y'alls thoughts on it?

The only flaw in this system is without being able to custom make spells than mage combat becomes stale. Also, as far as we know there aren't any hidden scripted effects for spells, although there could be. From what we have been told it is just "tap to fire a single ball of fire, hold to use it as a flamethrower, etc." That is fine and dandy. But it is no reason to remove spellmaking, especially since some of us have developed spellmaking systems that would work. The only problem is we can't code into the game engine so we can't easily add it unless we get things like OBSE and Pluggy again. The hardest part of adding spellmaking is keeping it from being spreadsheety which most of us don't have a problem with anyways.

The new system seems so much more fun, that IMO, its worth sacrificing the experimentation one can do with the spells. Worst case, Im sure you'll be able to tweak some things yourself in the CS.

What I think is interesting is how the other schools of magic will incorporate this new philosophy. For example, how will a command spell work? Or summon x? etc etc

Tap for your basic charm spell, hold for massive AoE charm spell. Your character throws glitter in the air yelling "Let's get this party started!" and suddenly the entire room becomes a ecstasy induced rave.

I am going to make a mod for this. I hope we can still edit spell effects because I am SO [censored] making that spell.

Win.

I'm unsure on the new spell system. I won't pass judgement til I get to use it, so 11/11/11. I like the current system, but I agree that it doesn't feel as epic and powerful as being an all powerful mage should be.

Still, I'm very sceptical about not being able to create my own spells. I like my summon x and invisibilty on self spell.

I like the sound of the new spell system - but then I'm an immersion gamer more than a stat's lover. That's not to say that I wouldn't be a little disappointed if there was absolutely no form of spellmaking in Skyrim - I suspect they may well find a way to incorporate it, just without the 'numbers', at least that's what I'm hoping.

They should still implement spell combinations.

They did. You have two hands.

I don't mind the removal of spell creation really. Think about it like this: now we have a reason to learn new spells from NPCs. In Oblivion I pretty much used my custom spells and had almost no need to buy from NPCs. It made the guys who sell spells useless.

But... [censored] those guys. Why not just make so each spell merchant lets you make your own custom spell via spellmaking, but you can only choose from effects he knows about. Eventually (like once you are high enough in the MG or whatever) you can learn spells from people who have mastered all forms of magic allowing the creation of the uber spells being made in Oblivion. That way I get spellmaking and you get NPCs with a point.

I can't see why spell making can't still work, you just wouldn't know how powerful the spell you made is. And the spell you make gets more powerful with you.

One way I'd suggest is that custom spells would just need essentially effect and something that varies the power of that effect. An easy solution to that would be a Magicka slider, so you can place more magicka into one effect then another, as you skill up the related skill(s) the spell becomes more powerful too, so spells you create early on don't become useless later on tho they would become less powerful/dominate.

Oblivion did get a little over the top on the amount of default spells it had, did we really need 3 different skeletons, 3 different ghosts, 2 different Dremora, 13 different spells with fire damage and similar number for frost and shock spells? Then add custom spells on top of that... I am for the cutting down of the number of spells and them scaling with you as you level as I believe is occurring here. (so if you get 10 points of destruction, your spell damage actually increases, rather then JUST magicka cost going down), I am just hoping the silly little things of 20~40 second conjuration spells is gone and they are either toggles or last an actual decent/useful amount of time... like 1~5 minutes (depending on skill and summon). This said, I'd still like custom spells as I said above, this way you can make your own bound armor spells or a spell with multiple element/damage/absorb effects.

I high doubt that the ability to make entirely new custom spells in creation kit would be removed, I suspect we will still be able to create spells for mods, else wise it'd be very limited... so that way I also suspect we will still have the ability to make spells that way but I am guessing we will need to do more leg work with it and as such won't just be able to make custom spells that were made up entirely of preexisting spell effects like in Oblivion. This would of course mean that spells however are far more unique despite the extra work it will likely entail. Personally I'd like more details on modding because I am already planning some stuff now.

Haha , you just made my day :biggrin:.

I still fail to see how the new system and spell making must be mutually exclusive.

I don't mind the change.
Magic was horribly boring in previous games. Being a powerful mage didn't make one feel powerful. I mean, great, the same fireball I was shooting earlier in the game has a longer duration, larger size, and higher magnitude. But it's still that fireball. If there's one thing that I don't want to seem mathematical and structured, it's magic.

The new affects allow for a lot more originality for mages. The additional alterations of elemental spells (their added affects) also makes things more interesting. And this is only the first instance of the new magic system. I'm sure there will be some options in the creation kit, and it's possible that once they see how players react to it such a thing could be implemented in DLC or something.

Here's the deal though: I WANT it to be that way. I love messing with each facet of a spell, tweaking and perfecting. The way I see magic in TES is like a science. To be researched and experimented with. I DO NOT want to just be handed spells and told to go play with them. I WANT to experiment, combine, and tweak their effects.

Not to mention, the spells NPCs sell always svck total ass, which means Bethesda svcks at making custom spells, which also makes me not trust them to just hand me a couple of pre-made spells.

And once again, why does this new spell system have to be mutually exclusive? Why can't it have spell making?

I think I read somewhere (yeah, I know that's vague) that Todd said without spellmaking they could add more and unique spells to the game. If they add new effects they have to take into consideration of how players use it/implement it with spellmaking. Without spellmaking it would be easier for them to add, say, an earthquake spell, or a grease/oil slick spell, or a wind spell that knocks enemies back. With spellmaking, for example, if they put a wind effect spell into the game, for balance reasons, it would probably be the same as fire/ice/lightning but with a different fx. This damage, this duration, this area/magnitude. Otherwise I think the spellmaking would get weird/unbalanced.

That doesn't make any sense. This only happens if you consider spellmaking to HAVE TO USE NUMBERS. It does NOT have to use numbers. Spell making could LITERALLY be as simple as taking two different effects and putting them in a single spell so that when you cast it, both spells cast at once. That, of course, would dumb spell making down terribly, but you get my point. Spell making could deal with adding secondary effects, sort of like an upgrade bench, that let you change the way your spells worked. For instance, you might change the normal cast, instead of shooting a single bolt out, to have a shotgun like effect of weaker bolts. Combine spell making like this with a good perk system and you could have nasty spells. Imagine that there was a perk that made your ice spells chill their target and any target that target came in contact with for a period of time (Effectively chain frosting entire groups), then combine that with the shotgun effect. You could create spells that freeze an entire group in a single cast.

Spell making doesn't even have to be a service anymore. We should be able to fiddle with our spells on the fly and then save them as a template. So the spell I made would be called "Shotgun Ice", but my original ice spell would still be there and ready to use. I could even go back and change things about the Shotgun Ice spell that I disliked. Spell making could even allow users to turn perks off or on for that spell (why? Because what if you don't want certain perk effects? Imagine if there was a perk similar to the http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Meltdown perk from New Vegas, but for fire spells. Well, I don't want that to happen when I have allies around!).

People argue that the new system allows for more creative spell use, while I argue that they make no sense, because spell making AND the new system would have far, FAR more creative spell use.

:biggrin:



I think Todd's examples (just for fire) here; 'Like putting down a rune that explodes when you walk over it. Or fire you can spray that lingers on the ground, like you’re spraying a wall, and you can spray the ceiling. Or fire that travels like a flamethrower out of your hands. Or a fireball that you charge up and throw and it explodes at a distance.' sound like a pretty good start to me.



It doesn't, I guess. They could use a system where they hide the specific numbers and just use slider bars, or a simpler system that lets you combine, say, a scripted grease spell with a scripted wind spell (pushing an enemy back onto a slick of grease). But the more complex you make the spells (and I would argue that the examples Todd gives show specific scripting), the harder it is to make an effective spellmaking system that covers all those spell soloutions.

I would quite like to see a system whereby holding down the spellcast key charged a spell up to its maximum effect, instead of luck determining whether your 10-30 fireball did the business or not.

I can understand and appreciate that. Although I don't mind the change, I'm still going to miss the options that spellmaking gave me. Personally, in my ideal system, we would just be given affects or elements and we can do whatever we want with them on the fly.

Personally, I think spellmaking could have a place in it, they're just treading carefully. I really hope it pops up later on. I do appreciate the movement towards a more interesting and involved spell and affect set.

I never used spells overly much, but I still hope there is some form of spellmaking involved. Its been a feature of their games and should be kept in. That being said, other features have been lost since previous games, so I don't have much hope. At least the magic does sound interesting, and quite fluid. All the more reason why spellmaking would be even better.

Something I'm concerned with is how they'll handle durations on spells. If the only two (summon weapon/armor/daedra) spells available to my character have a 30 second duration and a 90 second duration, I'll be extremely limited up until I can reach that 90 second duration spell (even if I'm capable of casting a 60 second duration spell). Granted, there's nothing keeping me from casting the 30 second duration spell two or three times, but that's relatively annoying and could possibly end with my character being slain.

With spellmaking, I could make sure my spells leveled with my ability to cast them. Without it, I'll be extremely limited and reliant on higher tier spells that I may or may not be able to find as easily as, say, a regular weapon.

I loled hard.

I would like spellmaking as well. I was just trying to interpret what Todd was saying. He was talking about even with spellmaking a fire spell was a fire spell just with different numbers. He didn't talk about combination spells like, say, fire/paralyze spell if you wanted to make it.
But with spellmaking in the past the only thing you controled was damage, duration, and area of effect. If they added a chain lightning spell that jumped from target to target it would be hard to combine it with other spells because no other spells would have a similar effect. Say a low level spell jumped to two targets, higher ones jumping to 3-5 targets circling around if less targets were there. You would have to have a seperate control to set how many targets you want your lightning to go to in spellmaking, but not for other effects you might want to combine. So it gets more complicated in spellmaking with each unique spells they add.

Now if they just keep the effects that previous games had and had no spellmaking it would be lame. I can just see though how certain additions might make spellmaking overcomplicated. I'd still opt for spellmaking instead of additional effects that migh keep spellmaking out.

There's no reason to not have spell making. Not having spell creation is a deal breaker for me.