It was stated in Morrowind that much of the Legion had been recalled to Cyrodiil in view of an impending crisis there.

I could be wrong, but I thought aside from Caius, most of it was just talk possible recall of happening in the future. And either way, the whole heir-doppleganger crisis had apparently blown over by the time that the Oblivion Crisis began, and Ocato said that the legions were too busy to be able to reinforce Bruma.

In my eyes, "apparently blown over" kinda means the writers just sorta....forgot about it.

That's the way it APPEARS, anyway.

Most likely ... Uriel did have atleast three legitiem sons who were in there fifities when Uriel was killed, most likely that they have children, i havn't heard anything there children died and can't believe that not atleast one of his sons has children ... Ofcourse there might be a struggle;

Generals, what happend after Alexander the great died, his Generals did take over the macedonian empire...

King Helseth one of the greatest powerhouses on Tamriel for now, I'f he did survive the war he is a very likely choice

Akaviri ...

This slugs beasts forgot there name ...

But I still stay with the children of Uriel's Son's ...

The doppelganger thing might have been a preparation for the Gates Crisis - used to pull the Legions off-balance and delete the known heirs. But as there has been no further mention of the twins that suggests a cover-up - and it is only interesting things that can affect the future and someone's standing that get covered up.

Either the twins were murdered - wouldn't that be open news of a sort you cannot conceal? Or something interesting happened to them or was discovered ...

Assumin they are not dead - where are they now? [edit: and are the 'missing' legions with them or on their trail?]

What are you talking about? They were murdered by the Mythic Dawn along with Uriel Septim........hence the "no more heirs" situation.

^ This. Methinks there's a good fanfic in there somewhere. Hell, I just might go write it right now.

if you say so - I heard that it as just him and a few guards ... Fine by me if you say the twins were murdered in the dungeon or at the same time in another location. It does not undermine the view that previous accusations against thetwins were created inpreparation for Oblivion - though it does not prove it either. Except that the Legions were still put through a lot of manoeuvers by report ... and do you think that might have had something to do with the Mytthic dawn preparations for Oblivion?

slight nitpick: there were three heirs: Geldall, Enman, and Ebel. None of them were the same age. That makes it rather hard for them to be twins.

Well in Morrowind there was a rumour about two Imperials - hmmm, seems just a bit careless to have lost three heirs and the Emperor to a few nutcase assassins ...

Anyways I had thought of them as twins ... because by report they were accused of being doppelgangers - 'course they may not have looked like each other ... but there you go

They were a little more than "nutcase assassins"

I wouldn't say that there were "a few" either. If anything the assassination should stand as a testament to the skill and planning of the Mythic Dawn. To be able to kill the Emperor and his personal bodyguards as well as the heirs in one fell swoop...

that takes moxie.

That takes total ineptitude on the part of the Emperor's security and a lot of wishful thinking by the Devs - but if it works for you ...

My take is there should have been regiments ready to protect him - but aparently his idea of security was to hide in the sewers in a place about as far from the safety of his greatest strength as could be imagined and that was really the only thing that could make such a thing possible. And frankly a couple of hundred 'assassins' would not have been enough to down a fighting regiment.

Elite Combat troops may be inept in all sorts of situations, but not when in battle - then each man is like ten assassins - because everthing they do is organised to work in the most efficient way possible with all the other men.

Getting the heirs as well? Nah - that is like lightning striking four times in the same place on successive days.


to which redsrock replies:
In the first p[lace we were talking about events that happened during and subsequent to Morrowind in the Imperial Capital Seems to me I said that the Twins were not murdered before Oblivion. And that units of the Legions were pulled back to deal with that and this pushed a lot of troops out of place and caused a lot of confusion. I was also suggesting that the Mythic Dawn might have been involved with that. If you say they were murdered later by the Mythic Dawn then fine - that seems implausible that the entire family would offer itself up for assassination - but I have not seen anything that suggests they lived through the affair. But that still does not account for all the Legions - my bewilderment stems from the apparent absence of any real organised military force anywhere in Cyrodiil. So where are they? where are the reports of military disaster etc. It does seem like they have been held back somewhere for some purpose.

The story says all the heirs are dead. For sure and that Martin was the last. Was the rumour or a report on a piece of paper, or what Occato told you? Could someone have been lying to you or to others to protect an heir if the assassins murdered a double instead of the real guy and thus setting up something for the future? Maybe someone who did not understand about the amulet and stuff?

Getting back to plausible means of assassination: Now if someone smuggled in a weapon and struck before anyone was aware or some such that would be different.

I suppose it made for fun in the dungeon and made the player feel that he was at the heart of events = object achieved.

didn't caius cosades say that uriel septim had fallen ill? i'm not sure if that's what you'r referring to

Uriel had fallen ill... people were all "omg deathbed ill". Meanwhile, a bunch of uppity mages were spreading rumors that the heirs were doppelgangers put in place during the Imperial Simulacrum (read: Jagar Tharn's happy hour). This got a bunch of people scared and angry... riot riot riot, Imperial Guard charges to stop the riot, people got dead.

1999, the assassination of the emporer and his 3 sons was published in the black horse courier. Also, the dopplegangers mentioned in Morrowind were part of a rumor that: Jagar tharn had done away with the emporer's sons and replaced them with new individuals who magickally took the image of uriels brats. It is known that Jagar tharn took the image of Uriel septim, and fears that the emporers sons could really be Tharns drinking buddies in disguise arose after rumor of Uriel's poor health reached the public. If they really were dopplegangers, its likely that the real sons are either in the custody of Mehrunes Dagon, or dead.
Also, Uriel septim himself confirmed the death of his sons while advancing through the prison, and his ability for prophesy has been proven by the conversation that he had with one confused prisoner.
As to your criticism about the emporer's assassination and the methods the blades used to smuggle him out of the city:
If the emporer were to remain in the palace, He suffers increased risk of the staff and palace guards targeting him (as they could have been assassins). If He takes to the streets in order to leave the city he is bound to be killed, as their are multpile mythic dawn agents in the city and the entire population has the capability to cast a fireball.
He could be attacked from the streets, windows, and rooftops by magickal or mundane means. One need only look at the death of JFK to see how hard it would be for the emporer to make it through the streets if a well thought out assassination by a sufficently skilled marksman or magister were to be attempted. To put it simply, Without means of magickal transport the only chance he had would be to use a little known passageway in the prison system.

Lets not also forget that you have no gurantee the mage telporting you is going to teleport you to the right place. A guild guide could have sent Uriel to lake Arius.

No it be Jagar Tharn. (Says in best Jagar Tharn voice)

I am the empor lol all u impere are belogn to us.

ty DarthRavanger that fills in a lot of detail.

It could be as you say - let me see if I can come up with further possibilities based on that

If they are dopplegangers it could be that the Mythic Dawn killed the wrong ones and it was merely the death of doubles that was reported in the Black Horse Courier. In times of war newspapers are mere tools of the state and military. That might mean that Dagon Mehrunes does not have the originals.

... and even given Uriel's gift for prophesy could it be that he saw the 'future hero' in a jail cell and at his death, but did not know at that point whether to trust him fully as the hero who was going to outlive him might have betrayed the identity and location of the heirs at a later date.

So Uriel took a chance and told him of the one inescapable deed that had to be accomplished and charged him to do it because he believed no one else there would survive his death, then lied about the rest. That would make Martin a throw-away sacrifice - if he succeeds he is fit to be Emperor and usefully untainted by past accusations of doppelgangers, if not then the doppelgangers were disposed of by the unwitting Mythic Dawn and the real heirs are free to work behind the scenes to root out and dispose of those assassins, those who paid for them and any other traitors before revealing themselves.

I do not say this has to be - just that its possible - and a useful way forward. 'course the player is unlikely to fgeel particularly well-disposed towards the other heirs, but that's another matter.

Possibly Uriel had other prophetic dreams to which the hero is not privy.

About your take on the assassins - if the Emperor cannot be protected from a fireball, then he never could be - same with every other Emperor and the Empire could not exist ...

In a time of open warfare, or in response to a known plan to assassinate there are such things as magical shields etc. Assassins work by stealth. There was no army to back the Mythic Dawn up until the Emperor was dead and they began opening the Gates ... my statement remains a field army could have protected him with ease - roofs and windows or not.

Imperial decree and troops to clear the palace or any other buildings and several solid phalanxes of mages and infantry - bye bye puny assassins.

Now if you say he did not try that because of the prophetic dreams - well maybe he was sent loopy by them - what I feel is that the mega-assassin theory does not work for the above reasons.

Don't worry folks, another completely unknown illegitimate son of Uriel will suddenly come out of nowhere to save the day.

- he was a busy man

I've heard "pansixual."

I think the whole appeal of this period is the uncertainty of the succession and the potential for violent political turmoil in the immediate future.

Agreed. It would be lame to have another illegitimate heir come forward in TES V as an imitation of "Oblivion".

Although it was only for a roleplay, I liked how Ted Peterson accounted for the assassination of the Septims. He had the heir fall for a woman who was secretly a Mythic Dawn member. At the engagement ball, she knifes him and drops the mask so to speak. It turns out the Mythic Dawn had spent months (probably, years) infiltrating the palace, so many guards and guests turn out to be Mythic Dawn also. The three heirs are killed and Uriel, who was in a different room at the time, is hustled off to the dungeon escape route.

Even though it was non-canonical, I prefer that approach to having the heirs really be dopplegangers.

Just remember that if morrowinds doppleganger rumor were true, then that means that Jagar tharn is responsible for putting the dopplegangers in place, greatly increaseing the likelyhood that they are dead or in mehrune's custody.

A feild army would have been very protective if they were not tainted by the influence of the Mythic dawn. The mythic dawn would have had to be planning that assassination for years, and they would most likely have taken into account every possibility. Including the possibility that the emporer would use an army to leave the city. The mythic dawn even knew about the citiy's secret escape route, and had stationed a good amount of troops there. These aren't your ordinary assassins. They are numerous, they are powerful, they have infiltrated. My point is, that the emporer would have only a slim chance of surviving the city, no matter what escape method he used.

sorry guys and gals don't think hard this three children of uriel septim, forgive me forgot there name, they were in what there late 40's / 50's, it is pretty much likely this three sons of uriel have children, havn't heard anything of the dead of there offspring ...

So is it to hard to think that one of there children will be the next in line ?

I'd quite like it if the throne remained unfilled, or became filled by a succession of incompetant or hamstrung leaders while the empire fell apart around them. This means tamriel becomes a collection of warring states few of them as big as the pre-fall provinces, somewhat like Europe after the fall of the Roman empire, for example the Roman province of "Hispania" was only united after the fall of them empire briefly in the latter part of the 16th century, and remains disunited now. There were throughout the medieval period and the dark ages a large number of states in spain, such as Castile, Leon, Aragon and Portugal, not to mention the Moorish Islamic lands.

The empire itself could persist in a number of of forms, from a shrunken "empire" of cyrodiil to an empire consisting of parts of the old empire but lacking other parts. I'd love to see a Holy-Roman-Empire style succession too with a council of "Electors" consisting of the great and the good of the land.But thats because I find the Holy-Roman-Empire deeply facinating