The Night Mother

Post » Sat May 28, 2011 8:06 am

So who truly is the Night Mother? Is it just a title, or was the apparition seen in Bravil under the statue of the Lucky Old Lady really the bride of Sithis and founderess of the Dark Brotherhood?

I've become increasingly interested in her true identity as of late.

In Oblivion, she appears as a Ghostly Dunmer woman. In Morrowind, she appears as an Imperial woman who you have to kill in Ald Sotha.

At the head of the Dark Brotherhood hierarchy is the Night Mother, an immortal spirit who is revered and worshiped by the Brotherhood. She is only ever met face-to-face in very exceptional circumstances and is seen as a phantom-like form. When a person prays for the death of another, the Night Mother hears and passes on the details of the prayer to her Listener. At this point, the Listener informs a Speaker, who then goes to meet the hiring party in order to draw up a contract. It is said that the Night Mother and her children were the first sacrifices to Sithis many years ago and that she now guides her Listener through the Statue of the Lucky Old Lady in Bravil.

In the book Fire and Darkness: The Brotherhoods of Death, the Night Mother is identified as the Daedra Lord Mephala. In another book entitled Sacred Witness, the Night Mother is identified as a former Thieves Guild member. In Morrowind, NPC Severa Magia is identified as "Night Mother".


So is the Night Mother an incarnation of Mephala herself? Or an agent similar to the Nerevarine who is repeatedly reincarnated?
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koumba
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 9:39 pm

Mephala? Why not Nocturnal, who herself is an "echo" of sorts of the Void of Sithis herself and has a somewhat phantom like form.

Mephala IS a likely candidate still, though. One of here "spheres" is secret murder and one guild already reveres here because of this fact, so why not another?

Perhaps an amalgamation of the two? Perhaps neither? Perhaps some random chick that has a phantom form.

I'm basically trying to say that (I don't think) no one knows for sure. Hasn't been revealed.
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Anthony Santillan
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 8:17 am

Mephala? Why not Nocturnal, who herself is an "echo" of sorts of the Void of Sithis herself and has a somewhat phantom like form.

Mephala IS a likely candidate still, though. One of here "spheres" is secret murder and one guild already reveres here because of this fact, so why not another?

Perhaps an amalgamation of the two? Perhaps neither? Perhaps some random chick that has a phantom form.

I'm basically trying to say that (I don't think) no one knows for sure. Hasn't been revealed.

Well, yes, it's not known, but I'm open to speculation.

I was assuming Mephala as the Morag Tong's patron deity is Mephala. And, as indicated by lore, the Dark Brotherhood came from the Morag Tong.
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Adam
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 1:57 am

Mephala is not just the daedric prince of murders, but of plots as well. What a wonderful little plot she has devised; wearing the guise of some old hag and having them worship him all the same, snickering at their naivete. She even got them to think that Sithis is actually a being, and not simply Not. Clever of him, no?
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Kristina Campbell
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 10:58 pm

Ah, but Boet-hi-ah is the Prince of Plots as well.
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Phoenix Draven
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 6:39 pm

Ah, but Boet-hi-ah is the Prince of Plots as well.


His plotting involves the violent overthrow of established powers. His plots involve a battle cry and an axe-swinging charge, and eating the enemy and crapping them out, not a slip of a knife between the ribs like Mephala.
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Amber Ably
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 9:19 am

His plotting involves the violent overthrow of established powers. His plots involve a battle cry and an axe-swinging charge, and eating the enemy and crapping them out, not a slip of a knife between the ribs like Mephala.


That's secret murder though, like I said in my post.
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Maddy Paul
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 4:56 am

Understand, first of all, that Mephala represents a subtle blend of contradictions. The most obvious of these contradictions, of course, is her androgeneity; she is simultaneously male and female. Many of the concepts she represents have nuances and related concepts that may not complement one another, as outlined in http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/vivec_mephala.shtml. Anything within her spheres will have "subtle" and "violent" aspects.

I think that the title "The Webspinner" refers more to her penchant for "spinning" violent intrigues between mortals, rather than to anything to do with fate, per se. These webs intrigues don't necessarily have to be political in nature, as it would usually be with Boethiah. Conversely, Boethiah's plots aren't always lethal, whereas Mephala's almost invariably are. Think, for example, of her shrine quest in Oblivion, which involved setting up a murderous hatred between two families, in a decidedly sneaky and dastardly manner, culminating in killing en masse.

Mephala's primary aspects are those of Murder, Secrets and six (whatever connotation that latter may have - Crimson Paladin raises a good point). Therefore, in engaging in any of them, you empower her. She may or may not show gratitude when this happens. She may reward those who carry out her schemes, but it's usually in a fashion that ensures that the minion in question becomes even more adept at "serving" Mephala. The Ring of Khajiit and the Ebony Blade would both be invaluable in any attempts at assassination or conspiracy. I'm sure that her followers believe that she cares for them, but that might just be a psychological crutch. I think it's far more likely that the Prince of Enigma's motives would be as mysterious as she is.

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Maeva
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 1:50 am

Boeithiah is much more egoistic and massive than Mephala.

Read Boethiah's Glory.

Subtlety goes out the window when Boethiah's around.
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Wayne Cole
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 7:18 pm

Boeithiah is much more egoistic and massive than Mephala.

Read Boethiah's Glory.

Subtlety goes out the window when Boethiah's around.

This has become more about a debate over what God than the actual nature of the Night Mother.

I kind of think she's like the Nerevarine in a sense that she can be reincarnated if she so chooses, which she didn't in the time of Oblivion.
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Miguel
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 5:40 am

This has become more about a debate over what God than the actual nature of the Night Mother.

I kind of think she's like the Nerevarine in a sense that she can be reincarnated if she so chooses, which she didn't in the time of Oblivion.

But Nerevar did not chose to be reincarnated, did he. He just were.
Like all other people on Nirn, if one "believes in" the Dreamsleeve.
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Budgie
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 6:54 pm

Alysia: "The Night Mother is the Lucky Old Lady".

True in some ways, but not in others.

I dont think I have to say so much more as you already have been given some good answers.
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bimsy
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 12:00 am

Alysia: "The Night Mother is the Lucky Old Lady".

True in some ways, but not in others.

I dont think I have to say so much more as you already have been given some good answers.


From the UESP.
The Night Mother is likely to have lived during the Second Era, although the woman represented by the statue lived in the First Era, which strongly suggests the two are not the same person. There are the skeletal remains of one advlt and five children in her tomb, representing the mother and her children in Dark Brotherhood beliefs.


So... I don't know what to think anymore. :stare:
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Genevieve
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 11:35 pm

The Morag Tong assassin who killed Reman III returned to the embrace of the Night Mother, and then hopped on a boat and swannied off to Vounoura.

She had a Morag Tong writ on her.

So, either she was actually DB in disguise, or the criminalization of the Morag Tong because of Reman's assassination exacerbated the split between the DB and Morag Tong. Causing the Night Mother to become an icon for the DB.

No doubt that Mephala has something more to do in all this murderous mayhem than we know.
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Roberta Obrien
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 9:19 pm

The Morag Tong assassin who killed Reman III returned to the embrace of the Night Mother, and then took swannied off to Vounoura.

She had a Morag Tong writ on her.

So, either she was actually DB in disguise, or the criminalization of the Morag Tong because of Reman's assassination exacerbated the split between the DB and Morag Tong. Causing the Night Mother to become an icon for the DB.

No doubt that Mephala has something to do in all this murderous mayhem.

And now she's more of just a cult icon. I guess she always was, but this way of looking at things takes away any sense of divinity or supernaturality that she had.
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Juliet
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 5:11 am

There are many theories to the real identity of the Night Mother. But I don't think it is Mephala, at least for the Dark Brotherhood's purposes, because there's a tomb of her, and because they don't worship Mephala. But I do suspect that the Morag Tong sometimes refers to Mephala as the Night Mother.
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Angela Woods
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 10:09 am

There are many theories to the real identity of the Night Mother. But I don't think it is Mephala, at least for the Dark Brotherhood's purposes, because there's a tomb of her, and because they don't worship Mephala. But I do suspect that the Morag Tong sometimes refers to Mephala as the Night Mother.


I thought I heard that somewhere in Morrowind too. Did any of them Morag Tong say anything about it?
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Alex [AK]
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 7:31 am

I've never been a fan of enantiomorphs, avatars, mirror-spirits, pre-mythic echoes and all that lark. A nice apotheosis, glorification into the divine does the trick for me, that's why Tiber Septim is probably the most confusing and annoying character in TES.

There really is no need to think that any Night Mother is, or was Mephala or Sithis-whathaveyou on anything other than a metaphorical level. Because you're never going to know for sure, and it's not as if the Morag Tong/DB are really concerned with whether any Night Mother is or is not Mephala/Sithis, it's the manner of the murder, the motives and the ritual involved that truely separates them.
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kyle pinchen
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 12:58 am

I thought I heard that somewhere in Morrowind too. Did any of them Morag Tong say anything about it?

In one mission they say that that they execute writs for the Night Mother. It's just a mention, but an interesting one. And of course, you later go kill the DB's supposed Night Mother in Ald Sotha.
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Rodney C
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 2:26 am

In one mission they say that that they execute writs for the Night Mother. It's just a mention, but an interesting one. And of course, you later go kill the DB's supposed Night Mother in Ald Sotha.

Yes, the Morag Tong refer to their leader as the Night Mother. This Night Mother is different from the Dark Brotherhood's night mother, as it is a Title rather than a specific person.
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Jodie Bardgett
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 10:56 pm

In one mission they say that that they execute writs for the Night Mother. It's just a mention, but an interesting one. And of course, you later go kill the DB's supposed Night Mother in Ald Sotha.


I remember the latter clearly. So there aren't any major texts in Oblivion that detail any more info about the Night Mother?
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Del Arte
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 2:26 am

I remember the latter clearly. So there aren't any major texts in Oblivion that detail any more info about the Night Mother?


Did Oblivion actually detail anything at all? Apart from grafix?
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DAVId MArtInez
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 11:55 pm

The Morag Tong split from the DB as it got bigger. Originally it was just a bunch of Mephala fanatics. Over time they became Sithis/Night Mother fanatics. Apparently the Night Mother was a Mephala fanatic too.
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Nicole Coucopoulos
 
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Post » Sat May 28, 2011 3:21 am

But Nerevar did not chose to be reincarnated, did he. He just were.
Like all other people on Nirn, if one "believes in" the Dreamsleeve.


Not quite.

The dream sleeve acts somewhat like plato's shadow cave. It's impossible to observe the true nature of things because you observe them with limited senses. Much like the infinite Divine plane(t)s appear to be finite bodies in impossible orbits around Nirn, the afterlife appears to be what one would culturally expect.

Its existence can still be inferred from the similarities in the origin of mortals and daedra, the Altmer notion that to last they had to make more of themself and in doing so became weaker, the recurring pattern of roughly eight similair gods but each with different cultural trappings, ect,ect.

The Morag Tong split from the DB as it got bigger. Originally it was just a bunch of Mephala fanatics. Over time they became Sithis/Night Mother fanatics. Apparently the Night Mother was a Mephala fanatic too.


Might as well reference 'Source of Chaos'.

There really is no need to think that any Night Mother is, or was Mephala.


Maybe if she didn't start the the whole joint in the first place. :)
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Soph
 
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Post » Fri May 27, 2011 11:43 pm

Not quite.

The dream sleeve acts somewhat like plato's shadow cave. It's impossible to observe the true nature of things because you observe them with limited senses. Much like the infinite Divine plane(t)s appear to be finite bodies in impossible orbits around Nirn, the afterlife appears to be what one would culturally expect.

Its existence can still be inferred from the similarities in the origin of mortals and daedra, the Altmer notion that to last they had to make more of themself and in doing so became weaker, the recurring pattern of roughly eight similair gods but each with different cultural trappings, ect,ect.

Well... Yes.
Did that have something to do with the words "believes in"? For really, the only thing I was saying was that Nerevar did not chose to be incarnated.
The "believes" in reffered only to the "theory" that there is a dream sleeve to begin with.
And no, I'm not saying there isn't. :dance:
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Enie van Bied
 
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