The Nine, Their Avatars, and Their Champions : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:01 am

"Without a champion, the gods are powerless to act." Why is that true(for Aedric beings)? The Daedric Princes are usually forbidden from entering Mundus, but are the Nine? It has been speculated that the Nine work through heroes, they use avatars in several cases, and, as a fact, they needed the Divine Crusader, a mortal, to act against Umaril. Akatosh didn't appear to stop Dagon until Martin sacrificed himself and the Amulet of Kings. Why is that so? Why wouldn't Akatosh just appear and save his worshippers? Why are the Aedric beings as powerless as they are without mortal champions? Are they significantly weaker in Mundus than they are in Aetherius? Are they held back by a barrier that is equivalent to that preventing Daedric Princes from coming to Mundus? Is it possible that, for some reason, the Nine don't really care about what happens in Mundus? I've always imagined that the Nine would gain power from worship, based on an ingame book I read. Why don't the Nine just show up on Mundus themselves, by themselves?

» Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:26 am

As far as I know, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the Aedra are still in Mundus. They didn't escape back to Aetherius at the end of the Dawn Era. Instead they chose to die, in a sense. This is why they are powerless to act in such a way, because a large part of them died, and what's left of them is the planets, which help govern the various laws of nature. Kyne being the winds and the rain, and Akatosh being time for example. It is probably because of this that they require a mortal to essentially "invoke" them and act as their avatar in order to perform any action in the world.

I'm sure someone else can better elaborate, but that's the basic idea anyway.

» Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:50 pm

They sacrificed a huge chunk of their power and physical bodies to create Mundus. Unlike the Earth Bones they didn't "go all the way". They still retain a consciousness and a presence in the world which is separate from the world itself, but they cannot act directly in most cases. It's like the principle of equivelent exchange from the anime fullmetal alchemist. Something must be sacrificed or swapped for the Aedra to appear. Martin sacrificed his blood and the Amulet of Kings to summon a body for Akatosh, briefly. It's much easier for them to make weak mortal avatars or work through and influence mortal champions.

» Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:58 am

As far as I know, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the Aedra are still in Mundus. They didn't escape back to Aetherius at the end of the Dawn Era. Instead they chose to die, in a sense. This is why they are powerless to act in such a way, because a large part of them died, and what's left of them is the planets, which help govern the various laws of nature...

How I see it: they sacrificed their bodies to Mundus (the planets) and their spirits ascended to Aetherius.

» Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:42 pm

How I see it: they sacrificed their bodies to Mundus (the planets) and their spirits ascended to Aetherius.

Nope, they are now bound to Mundus. The only things that are living in the Aetherius is the Magna Ge, being who did not participate in the creation of Mundus, and ripped holes in Oblivion to get to the Aetherius. Also, these guys DO NOT INTERACT WITH OUTSIDERS! Because of that, outsiders are most likely not even welcomed at all, and if anyone is caught interacting with outsiders they are tossed out. Meridia did, and she was the daughter of Magnus! He didn't care, she broke rule #1, and was punished accordingly. Also, the Aetherius isn't some sort of Heaven.

» Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:35 pm

So, in your opinion, what happened with Auri-El when he "ascended to heaven"? (as it is stated in Varieties of Faith). I was under the impression that heaven in this context means Aetherius since Altmer believe in afterlife in Aetherius.

» Fri Sep 24, 2010 8:21 am

You meet several Aedric proxies/avatars in Morrowind.

» Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:10 am

So, in your opinion, what happened with Auri-El when he "ascended to heaven"? (as it is stated in Varieties of Faith). I was under the impression that heaven in this context means Aetherius since Altmer believe in afterlife in Aetherius.

Don't wholly believe in what the altmer say, they're a race of conceited, backward sulkers who think it was always better in the past and never set their sights forwards, unless it's to go 10 million steps backwards.

» Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:24 pm

So, in your opinion, what happened with Auri-El when he "ascended to heaven"? (as it is stated in Varieties of Faith). I was under the impression that heaven in this context means Aetherius since Altmer believe in afterlife in Aetherius.

That's a tricky bit. I some myths all the gods left, in some myths they all died. Yet they're still present in Mundus, in nine culturally significant different forms none the less, where as the Daedra only have one very consistent form. What seems to have happened though is that from the parts that were sacrificed and lost, the believes and memories of mortals in their old gods recreated them in Mundus.

I'd write a more elaborate post but I don't have my notes on this PC.

» Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:09 am

They sacrificed a huge chunk of their power and physical bodies to create Mundus. Unlike the Earth Bones they didn't "go all the way". They still retain a consciousness and a presence in the world which is separate from the world itself, but they cannot act directly in most cases. It's like the principle of equivelent exchange from the anime fullmetal alchemist. Something must be sacrificed or swapped for the Aedra to appear. Martin sacrificed his blood and the Amulet of Kings to summon a body for Akatosh, briefly. It's much easier for them to make weak mortal avatars or work through and influence mortal champions.

What about Talos? He wasn't involved in the creation of Mundus, was he? Who are truly more powerful, the Nine or their mortal champions?

» Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:47 am

What about Talos? He wasn't involved in the creation of Mundus, was he? Who are truly more powerful, the Nine or their mortal champions?

Isn't he just another manifestation of Shezarr though?

» Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:18 am

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» Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:24 am

Don't wholly believe in what the altmer say, they're a race of conceited, backward sulkers who think it was always better in the past and never set their sights forwards, unless it's to go 10 million steps backwards.

Who should I believe then? Nords, Khajiits or Bretons?

» Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:54 am

Who should I believe then? Nords, Khajiits or Bretons?

Imga are a pretty safe bet. They're pretty level headed people. I played cards with one last week. Dude works for a living. Honest dude.

» Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:10 am

Who should I believe then? Nords, Khajiits or Bretons?

Probably all the races have part of the Truth. I think we're seeing here the same ambiguity that's a trademark of the Elder Scrolls universe.

The three Aedric avatars you encounter in "Morrowind" were interesting to me too. I got the feeling that they were indeed the avatars that the Imperial Cult priestess claims, and that the Mara and Zenithar avatars that you "rescue" were only testing the Nerevarine; they could have probably escaped their captors at any time. Maybe it's like the story title by Tolstoy, "God sees the truth, but waits"; the Aedra are limited in how much they can help you/the Nerevarine.

» Fri Sep 24, 2010 8:57 am

Imga are a pretty safe bet. They're pretty level headed people. I played cards with one last week. Dude works for a living. Honest dude.

Believe the Imga? They are a shifty people. I've warned you.

http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#16:
A surviving Crater said, 'Appropriation is nothing new. Everything happens of itself. This motif is by no means unassociated with hero myths. You have not acted with the creative impulse; you fall below the weight of destiny. We are graves but not coffins. Know the difference. You have only dug more and supplied no ghosts to reside within. ... Similarly, all the other symbols of absolute reality are ancient ideas ready for their graves, or at least the essence of such.

The Aedra are traqed as Earthbones, refered to as the craters/graves, of the mortified body of Lorkhan. These graves never fill - they contain no coffin, but are feed by mortals - the ghosts. Thus, Aedra perpetuate through the dead belief of mortals and their repetition of old hero myths: Lunar Currency, destiny - Mantling and incarnation are separate roads; do not mistake this. The latter is built from the cobbles of drawn-bone destiny.

So, the Aedra do not reside in Aetherius; and the King of Alinor was deified, because he mantled Auriel. That's if my understanding is correct, which it may not be.

Edit: But then I wonder: if the gods' bodies/planets/Earthbones are Lunar, could there be Solar halves, left behind in Aetherius? Am I missing something obvious?

Edit2: Yes, you are. Their Solar halves were et'ada who, prior to Nirn, dwelt in Aetherius. But these are dead, as the Earthbones.

That could be. Thank you self.

» Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:57 am

Probably all the races have part of the Truth. I think we're seeing here the same ambiguity that's a trademark of the Elder Scrolls universe.

That's right - All the creation stories of the various races are pretty much the same, if not very similar. Being familiar with them all still paints a fairly vague picture but each story would have it's own share of the truth.

» Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:16 am

That's right - All the creation stories of the various races are pretty much the same, if not very similar. Being familiar with them all still paints a fairly vague picture but each story would have it's own share of the truth.

Probably a safe bet to take the parts that run common through all the various creation myths, and either discard or approach the rest with scrutiny.

» Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:17 am

So the various gods *are* different planets, just as Nirn is the body of Lorkhan? I'm not sure I follow--and if they are perpetuated by myths, how do their avatars (Wulf, and the other ones from the Oracle quests, along with the dragon of Akatosh) appear in the real world? How do priests excercise divine powers--or more appropriately perhaps, how do they intercede in mortal affairs at various shrines, etc?

And what exactly is meant by mantling?

» Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:43 am

So the various gods *are* different planets,

Yes

just as Nirn is the body of Lorkhan?

No. Nirn is made up of pieces of the aedra and wholes known as the Earthbones. Lorkhan/Shor/Shezzar is currently two moons above Nirn, with his heart in Nirn till recent events (we have no idea what happened to it)

I'm not sure I follow--and if they are perpetuated by myths, how do their avatars (Wulf, and the other ones from the Oracle quests, along with the dragon of Akatosh) appear in the real world? How do priests excercise divine powers--or more appropriately perhaps, how do they intercede in mortal affairs at various shrines, etc?

The aedra are in a state of sleep death. They're not quite dead, but they're not moving either. The avatars they send serve as, well, avatars of them because they're too weak from the part where they scarified some of their parts to create Nirn. Hell, the avatar of Shor/Lorkhan/Shezzar pop up here and there, and things happen, big things.

And what exactly is meant by mantling?

Walk like them till they walk like you, or more simply if it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and fly like a duck, it must be a duck. The process involves mimicking to the point where the two entities are SO alike, they're pretty much the same thing. Only twice has mantling been performed that resulted in gods. Of those two times, it has been performed by Tiber Septim, with the help of Zurin Arctus and Wulfhart to mimic the enantiomorph and become Talos to be Cyrodiil's Shezzar (whom they kinda threw out sometime in the first era), and the CoC, with the help of Sheogorath, and the CoC ended up becoming Sheogorath.

» Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:39 pm

Right, like Pelinal was supposedly an avatar of Shezzar or whatnot. The avatars are presumably fully aware of what they are, yes?---are they consciously controlled by the Aedra? *Are* they they Aedra?

And how does someone like Morihaus come about, anyway, if the Aedra are planets? He was the son of Kynareth, yes? Who was the father? How does a dead planet give bith to a living thing? What does it mean, then, for Morihaus to be semi-divine in that fashion?

» Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:51 am

Right, like Pelinal was supposedly an avatar of Shezzar or whatnot. The avatars are presumably fully aware of what they are, yes?---are they consciously controlled by the Aedra? *Are* they they Aedra?

The physical manifestations of the aedra, their avatars, are wholly aware they're aedra. As for Shor's avatars, yes, and you can look at his dialog from Pelinal to see. Also, the avatars ARE the aedra, just in a physical manifestation. They can't do much, save for Shor who seems to forget he's dead at times, as they're still pretty weakened, and require the powers of heroes to do something.

And how does someone like Morihaus come about, anyway, if the Aedra are planets? He was the son of Kynareth, yes? Who was the father? How does a dead planet give birth to a living thing? What does it mean, then, for Morihaus to be semi-divine in that fashion?

Someone like Morihaus had a divine parent. He's divine, but not wholly divine, demi-god if you will and did eventually die. And how does a planet give birth to something? Ask the dead body of Reman I, his mother is Nirn! Literally! When it comes to divinity in this sort of fashion, it usually means this person is going to be doing BIG things, and it's very uncommon. What we know in real life doesn't really apply to TES.

Oh, and the aedra are not completely dead, just mostly dead. Think of their condition as giving an arm or a leg to create a person. Some gave more of their body parts than others, and some donated their whole body (Earthbones)

EDIT: Here's the line about Hrol making love to the hillock, and Reman I's birth:

Hrol and his shieldthane were the only ones to find her, and the king spoke to her, saying, I love you sweet Aless, sweet wife of Shor and of Auri-el and the Sacred Bull, and would render this land alive again, not through pain but through a return to the dragon-fires of covenant, to join east and west and throw off all ruin. And the shieldthane bore witness to the spirit opening naked to his king, carving on a nearby rock the words AND HROL DID LOVE UNTO A HILLOCK before dying in the sight of their union.

When the fifteen other knights found King Hrol, they saw him dead after his labors against a mound of mud. And they parted each in their way, and some went mad, and the two that returned to their homeland beyond Twil would say nothing of Hrol, and acted ashamed for him.

But after nine months that mound of mud became as a small mountain, and there were whispers among the shepherds and bulls. A small community of believers gathered around that growing hill during the days of its first churning, and they were the first to name it the Golden Hill, Sancre Tor. And it was the shepherdess Sed-Yenna who dared climb the hill when she heard his first cry, and at its peak she saw what it had yielded, an infant she named Reman, which is "Light of Man."

And in the child's forehead was the Chim-el Adabal, alive with the dragon-fires of yore and divine promise, and none dared obstruct Sed-Yenna when she climbed the steps of White-Gold Tower to place the babe Reman on his Throne, where he spoke as an advlt, saying I AM CYRODIIL COME.

» Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:35 am

So the avatars are otherwise dissimilar from mortals, then? They have to rely on heroes--whom they seek out--to do what they seek to be done?

And, yes, I suppose I had forgotten about the Remanada--but that was Alessia's doing, no? How did Kynareth birth Morihaus if she's a distant planet? I have to imagine the Aedra are not like Olympian gods, who have forms similar to humans and can simply birth from their wombs like any mortal would.

I think I grasp what you're saying about the import of divinity: essentially it's that the divinity has less to do with their physical nature and is more of a signpost that they're destined for great things? Is there even any physical manifestation of these demi-gods divinity at all then, or would they otherwise appear as ordinary mortals (whether men or... bull, I suppose)?

» Fri Sep 24, 2010 6:20 am

Pelinal and Morihaus definitely occupied a real physical space on Nirn, and their divinity was apparent in their great strength and ability to lead men to victory. It's implied in the Song of Pelinal that those around them were vaguely aware that they weren't normal, and one or two tried to name Pelinal as the Shezzarine, but everytime anyone did they he either struck them down or they were smothered by a swarm of moths. It also mentioned that Pelinal's left hand was a glowing light that burned his enemies and could completely erase entire swaths of land on Nirn, sending them into the void. That's definitely not normal.

» Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:08 am

or more appropriately perhaps, how do they intercede in mortal affairs at various shrines, etc?

When circumstances in reality are parallel with those in myth, the gods are attributed. Mortals caused those circumstances, though. Their deeds were similar, so the fruit of those deeds were similar. Incarnates are breed from destiny.

And what exactly is meant by mantling?

Mortals rewriting the myth, not following it, as incarnates do.

Don't forget that gods can be shaped by the mythopoeic forces of the mantlers...