But that version includes Wulfarth dying under the Red Moutain. With every other account placing the chimers as holding the Heart and the tools in the end, it means the nords had no first hand witness available, especially after their army got routed and butchered in the mess. Which means the Song is utter rubbish as far as what happened inside the Red Mountain is concerned. But for what happened out, the mobilisation, the tip from someone in House Dagoth, there are live witnesses, which makes it more likely to be true.

One can also note that 'devil' is a generic term used by he nords for the chimers. It has no relation with the 'Devil' term used by the Temple about Dagoth Ur, which means the 'Devil of Dagoth' is not necessarily Voryn. It might even not have been a genuine house Dagoth member, as I wouldn't trust the nords to tell a chimer faction from another. Though the mention of dwemers centurions (stolen men of brass) hints that it was the case. House Dagoth had afterall the closest relation wit the dwemer and possibly access to some of their machines.

I'm starting to wonder if Wulfharth, having mantled Shor/Lorkhan, was affected by Kagrenac's meddling with the Heart, hence how he would turn to ash, and how Almalexia was able to bring him back to fight the Akaviri. And how he could be a power source for Numidium, which was meant to have the Heart of Lorkhan. And of course his dislike for the Tribunal.

Back to the five songs of king Wulfarth : we don't know ecactly when they were written. But things like citing 'Dagoth Ur' - a name that was not used before the Tribunal became gods and he showed up again - hints that it was written quite some time after the battle, wiht probably some influence from the dunmer versions of the events and a hefty dose of 'artistic creativity', at least when it comes to what happened inside the Red Mountain.

The accounts are too conflicting to have a neat and definitive answer, but my impression is that Voryn Dagoth's role isn't clear cut.

Just so that I understand you correctly: You're saying that the very first part of the Nord's chronicle of the event, when Voryn Dagoth tells them where to find the Heart of Shor, is true. Everything that follows, from who the Nords say was allied with whom, to who killed whom, and to who wound up with the tools and the Heart (which is never really made clear exactly) is to be taken as 'poetic license' or 'artistic creativity'. That the Nords had no one left alive to witness the actual events inside the mountain so they just made something up that dovetailed nicely into their own view of things. (It certainly wouldn't be the first time that history was written like this!)

OK, I'll buy it, but with one major caveat:

If Voryn Dagoth indeed told the Nords where to find the Heart of Shor then he must have done it under orders from Nerevar himself. This ties into TBasilisk's conclusion from the http://www.imperial-library.info/fsg/sindervelvinarticle1.shtml article and is the only way to explain how Voryn went from being allied with the Nords against Nerevar at the beginning of the battle to being the general entrusted with the safe keeping of Kagrenac's tools by Nerevar himself at the end of the battle.

One more item : who whas allied with them (I.E non one) is likely to be true too.


I have some reservation about this article. For exemple he find strange and conflicting that Almalexia & co urged Nerevar to make peace with the dwemer only to later urge to war with them. But the explanation is obvious : at this time the presence of the Heart was unknown, and the Nords where a bigger threat to the Velothi than the Dwemer, so an alliance was the rational choice. Later, when the dwemer possesion of the Heart and their project for it surfaced then that alliance became obsolete. Breaking an alliance after it outlived it's utility is hardly a novelty in diplomacy.

Another point is his surprise at the Tribunal making Nerevar a Saint even if they planned to kill him. But why not ? Nerevar was a respected leader, the husband of Almalexia and (at least officially) a dear friend of the two others. A dead man pose no more threat, so making him a martyr of the cause makes sense and helps diverting potentially embarassing questions ("But they honor him as a saint ! Surely they would not if they killed him, no ?").

But your explanaton is not the only way Voryn could have been entrusted with the tools. Another one is that his eventual part in this was not known at the time and that the "alliance" of House Dagoth with the Dwemer and Nords is either an acknowledgement or a fiction made up after the events to further the ends of other actors of the drama, namely our beloved/hated trio.

After what happened with the Tools, Voryn Dagoth, The Heart and Nerevar, and both Nerevar and Voryn safely dead (at least apparently), Vivec & co likely branded the whole house as traitors and disbanded it as both a cover-up for their own questionnable deeds and to remove anyone who may know how to use the Tools and the Heart. This small civil war was fought just after the main battle and both where somewhat conflated in later tellings into House Dagoth being allied with the Dwemer either deliberately to vilify the fallen house, or simply by the lumping together a lot of fights against several ennemies in a short time by peoples not privy to the fine details.

When trying to assess the loyalties of the differents actors of this story, I try to keep in mind that the Velothi revere entities whose domains include among others plotting, conspiration and murder... Deception and assassination are powerful tools to pursue your ends.

You are right in your explanation, but at the end of the article Velvin does make allowance for this apparent contradiction:

'The Tribunal had secretly learned of the heart and its powers, which they wanted for their own, so they urged Nerevar to attack the Dwemer and to destroy this threat to Chimer beliefs and security.'


If Voryn Dagoth's true roll in the battle is either created or embellished after the fact by the ubiquitous trio, then the Nord's assertion that he entered Red Mountain as their ally is probably false, which is what I've been saying all along.


I was always puzzled as to why the Chimer/Dunmer would look upon Boethia and Mephala as 'good' daedra, given their respective spheres of influence. I suppose that with a society that gave birth to both the Morag Tong and the Dark Brotherhood it shouldn't be surprising. I think the word 'conspiration' can be used to sum up most Dunmer that I have met in my travels.

While I agree that the Tribunal can (and likely has to some degree because they could and it suited their needs) alter Velothi versions of the events, why would Nords accounts lie about who they were allied with ?

Because the Nord's mission to Red Mountain failed. They did not recover Shor's heart and their 'supposed' allies were wiped from the face of Nirn. To explain that they concocted the story found in Wulfharth. It would not be the first time that the losing side of a battle created a story to explain why they lost. The fact that they go so far to ignore the presence of the dwarves seems to bear this out. (the only dwarf mentioned in Wulfharth is Dumac, and he is conveniently placed on the Chimer's side.)

Is it a perfect theory? Absolutely not, and I will be the first to admit it, but it does provide food for thought.

Perhaps the Nords weren't in anyone's employ, but took advantage of the situation and fought against both the Chimer and the Dwemer. Previously, the Dwemer and Chimer would work together to fend off the Nords, but now those former allies were at war with each other, making it a good time to try and invade Morrowind again. In addition, it's likely that Wulfharth wanted to get his hands on the Heart of Lorkhan, although how he learned about it is anyone's guess. In the confusion of the war and its aftermath, it would be easy for the Chimer to assume that the Nords were hired by either the Dwemer and/or House Dagoth.

As I've mentionned earlier, the most likely explanation is a three-sided mess with each faction fighting against the two others and thinking them allied against him.

The tip to the nords about the Heart probably came from House Dagoth : they were the closest to the dwemers, and the other Houses learned of it only from Voryn Dagoth's report. though there's no reliable nformation to tell wether it was leaked by Voryn himself (or on his order), or someone in House Dagoth acting on his own (since Voryn Dagoth wasn'tthe only member of his House frequenting the dwemers, others could have heard of the Heart and what the dwemer wwre doing with it).

great thread!

details: In/after Oblivion the Nords invade Morrowind - why?


Well look at what the Nords really wanted = to reaffirm their connection with the Heart of Shore perhaps?

The Nords wanted Red Mountain and somehow I feel that Hairdo's mention of that artwork is involved

The 'Old Nords' - the really powerful ones lived with few or no clothes because winter could not bite on them

They lived in their Thruums ... if you have ever spent any time in a situation of hardship in cold climates assuming you survive you will find that you adapt to the lower temperature.

Note that Kagrenac and the Nords both based their 'science' on the power of sound. And that is what was used to tap the Heart - that is why that Book on King Wulfhearth is so important

It all adds up to something - go with it guys ^^

ps/edit you might ask yourselves whether the Nords wanted to remove the Heart or remain there with it - so who actually made Red Mountain into a Tower and why?

The battle as a three-sided affair makes a certain amount of sense. The Nords still longed to get their hands on Resdayn after failing before, and with the intel from House Dagoth they would have known about the Heart of Shor.

My only issue (and it is admittedly a small one) with this line of thinking comes back to all the varying sources we have. Though they differ on the details, all the sources paint the Nords and Orcs as firmly on the side of the Dwemer at Red Mountain. This brings to mind another question: If the Nords were there to secure the Heart then why fight against the Chimer? It seems that, if anything, they should have been allied with them. Were the actions of the Nords a ruse designed to allay the suspicions of the Dwemer so that Wulfharth's people could move closer to the Heart?

I may be destroying my own argument, but I can definitely see the possibility that the battle-lines and who was allied with whom are not as clear cut as the various sources would make it appear.


Interesting question; I always assumed that when the Dwemer discovered the Heart they raised the Tower around it. As for the Nords, it is clear that their desire to occupy Resdayn was great. It wouldn't surprise me if they planned on staying with the Heart once all the 'devils' were dealt with.

But that echoes your question: Just when did the Nords first learn the whereabouts of the Heart of Shor? We assume it was when they were told by the 'Dagoth Devil', but what if that contact occurred much earlier than Wulfharth implies? What if that was the real reason behind their wanting Red Mountain, and for the attack that was repelled by the combined Chimer/Dwemer forces?

O.K. now I have a headache.

:foodndrink: - a hair o' the dog

Kagrenac needed to create Tools to manipulate the Heart - did the Nords?

And as has been questioned otherwhere who did the Nords believe the Heart to belong to? shor is a Nord God specifically - the one the Mer call the trickster and betrayer is represented as a God of Men.

Maybe the Nords knew long before anyone where it was - because it belonged to one of them?

Every source validates the other, because the sources counter eachother. Its simply up to the reader to believe what they will, to believe one source, pieces of several, none or all. Personally, I agree with all of the accounts, in regard to one point, everyone was guilty of betraying the others. The Tribunal used Dagoth, like Dagoth used the Nords, like the Nords used the Dwemer, like the Dwemer used Nerevar, like Nerevar used the Anticipations, like the Anticipations used the Tribunal. and vice versa

perhaps there were nords on both sides, considering they were Mercs and all.

Looking back at your speculation about Voryn - could it be that the Nords knew a way to access the power of the Heart through their Song/ Thruums and that by making nice with the Nords Voryn learned at least part of their secret - but then he combined that with use of the Tools once he got his paws on them with dire consequences?

Before that point it may be that Voryn had a deal with the Nords - and that he told them to pull back so that he could get what they wanted for them. Maybe they helped him with knowledge that would allow him to safely move the Heart - but instead he betrayed them by melding that knowledge with the Tools.

Whatever this is very speculative