Hello all. This is a somewhat involved question that pertains to the Battle of Red Mountain:

We are told that the Dwemer used Nord and Orc allies during the battle, yet according to The Five Songs of King Wulfharth the Nords knew that the Dwemer had recovered Shor's heart (Shor=Lorkhan in the Nordic pantheon). If this is true, then why would the Nords ally themselves with those seeking to perform blasphemy upon the Heart of one they considered the 'Father of the Gods'?

For those of you who will point out the flaw of using Wulfharth as source material, I submit that I agree that Wulfharth should not be taken as gospel, but that certain facts (such as the Nordic vision of Shor as Lorkhan, and their knowledge of the Dwemer's activities under Red Mountain) should be taken as true.

Yagrum Bagarn states that:

"The Dwemer were not unified in their thinking. Kagrenac and his tonal architects, among them Bthuand Mzahnch, believed they could improve the Dwemer race. Others argued that the attempt would be too great a risk."

If we take Bagarn at his word, perhaps the 'Others' he refers to among the Dwemer are the ones who allied themselves with the Nords in an attempt to stop Kagrenac from conducting his experiments on the Heart. Perhaps they promised the Nords a return of the Heart for their aid. The Nords, desperate to recover Shor's Heart, would then be willing to ally themselves with Orcs (the descendants of Trinimac) in order to achieve that goal.

Just a theory and one certainly open for debate, does anyone have a better one?

Hired mercs? The Nords have wanted Vvardenfell for as long as one could remember...


If Skyrim as a nation officially allied with the Dwemer, then I am sure something was promised to them along the lines of ownership of Vvardenfell.

I do not see why Orcs would ally themselves with the Dwemer, though. It sounds to me as if they were hired mercenaries; I do not see why the Dwemer would want to give up any land at all, sounds like Nords were mercenaries as well.

My two cents.

None but Shor's. They were coaxed into attacking, with Voryn's intel on the location of his Heart. During the battle, the Nords were awakened to the truth they were again in the crux of Dawn, a new world was going to result from that battle.

The Nords were beset by all, in a master plan of the Tribunal's. The Dunmer still believe the Dwemer bought them, but the Nords say Voryn approached them. Voryn would say nothing of this visit to Nerevar, and of course, the Tribunal would not record it. Instead, their plan was to accuse the Dwemer of prempting war, by purchasing Nord mercenaries for an assault on Velothi, nevermind Anumidium! The Dwemer would not waste a moment with further talks; they had the Nords at their door, and they knew why. All resources were allocated to Kagrenac's theoretical 'weapon'.

It is also quite possible that this was a plot not by the (not yet) Tribunal, but by Voryn Dagoth alone, intended to create as much confusion and havoc as possible to create the opportunity to grab the Heart for his own use...

I agree with you about the Orcs being hired as mercenaries, but I think that the idea of the Nords being hired mercs is a bit too simplistic. If the Nords thought enough of this battle to resurrect King Wulfhath to lead their host then Skyrim thought more of this battle than just a dispute between rival mer factions.

It doesn't seem likely that the Dwemer would recruit Nordic mercenaries given the fact that Kagrenac's experiments involved using Shor's Heart to fuel Anumidium. I can just hear the Dwemer now:

"Yes we're going to use the heart of your chief deity to fuel our doomsday machine so that we can achieve immortality and rule the entire world and we want you to act as meat shields to protect us while we do it."

I don't think that would have gone over well in Winterhold.


According to the Nordic account they were coaxed into attacking by intel on the location of the Heart provided by Voryn, and while Wulfharth seems to have been steadfast in his purpose, he had to convince the other Nords of the real purpose of their mission. That still fails to address why the Nords would choose to ally themselves with the Dwemer, unless the alliance was a feint to mask their true intent.

Your second argument seems to indicate that the Tribunal set the Nords and the Dwemer against each other, yet we are told that the Nords and the Dwemer were allies at Red Mountain. It is all very confusing. (Not your argument, the 'official' stories, however many their are.)


This argument is predicated on the fact that Voryn Dagoth had already decided to use Kagrenac's tools for his own use, but I'm not sure if this is the case.

Why then remain loyal up to and through the battle? Why not strike down Nerevar the second he hands over the tools instead of allowing him to go and fetch the Tribunal? Why be so wounded and filled with rage over Nerevar's betrayal thousands of years later with the rise of the Nerevarine?

On a slightly related note, I always found it strange they chose to use http://www.imperial-library.info/history/mwind_history05.gif as promotional artwork for Morrowind since it has very little to do with the plot of the game.

Also, if this is a depiction of some war or battle between the Nords and Dunmer, be it at Red Mountain or otherwise, you'd think the Nords would wear something more than a loin cloth onto the field of battle. : / "Hey guys..we're about to go up against those infamous Dark Elves, who are heavily armed with arrows, melee weapons, a variety of spells and gigantic trained insects and reptiles. So let's wear as little armor as possible to ensure a quick death."

But they are fur loincloths!

I see the large volcano in the distance, but I hope this isn't a depiction of the Battle of Red Mountain. If it is, the artist missed the fact that the Chimer became Dunmer after the battle.

Wait, what? Are the Nords angry at Nerevar for a betrayal? What betrayal?

The betrayal (supposed or real, and subsequent anger) is that of Voryn Dagoth by Nerevar, not of the Nords.

There is no definitive document supporting one way or the other. It is more a matter of interpretation of the sources we have and personnal opinion


Because attuning himself to the Heart is not instant, and dispatching Nerevar would be too likely to trigger an interruption before the process could be completed.

As for the supposed loyalty of Voryn Dagoth, he brough a host of pretty steamed up Nords on the battlefield without informing Nerevar, who supposed them to be allied with the dwemers. Turning a two-way battle into a messy threesome without informing your leader does not appear very "loyal" to me...

Also he attuned himself pretty quickly to the Heart where Sotha Sil (who event at the time was not exactly an amateur in matters of magic) would spend years before feeling ready to attempt the experiment himself. This shows a pretty detailed knowledge of the workings of the Tools and the Heart that incite me to view Voryn as having planned a large part of the whole mess from the start.


Could be self-delusion - betrayed friend is a more appealing role than traitor. Could be an outright lie to attempt to sway the Nerevarine and lure him into giving away the Tools. Could be "guilt by association" as the Tribunal ended up doing what he did, but Nerevar turned against him while he still trusted them ?

The sources that say the Nords were allied with the Dwemer are Dunmer texts correct? Perhaps it isn't necessarily that the Dwemer and the Nords were fighting together, but that the Dunmer had to fight both of them and therefore lump them together as a common enemy.

:turtle:

I submit that all of this is interpretation and personal opinion.

Your doubt over the 'supposed' loyalty of Voryn Dagoth relies on the fact that The Five Songs of King Wulfharth is a reliable source. This just isn't the case:

Wulfharth says that "Nerevar carried Keening, a dagger made of the sounds of the shadows of the moon. His champions were Dumac Dwarfking, who carried a hammer of divine mass, and Alandro Sul, who was the immortal son of Azura and wore the Wraith Mail."

This clearly states that Nerevar and Dumac Dwarfking were allies when every other source states that they were friends turned bitter enemies by the battle and that Nerevar slew Dwarfking.

Wulfharth says that these three (Nerevar, Dwarfking, and Sul) fought Lorkhan, Wulfharth and Dagoth Ur. That Wulfharth was mortally wounded by Sul but not before 'shouting Sul blind'. It states that Dagoth Ur (not Nerevar) slew Dwarfking, but not before Sunder 'struck his lord's heart' (I assume this to mean Lorkhan). This caused Nerevar to turn away from Lorkhan and 'strike down' Dagoth Ur (which we know to be false), 'but he took a mortal wound from Lorkhan in return.'

Nowhere, I repeat nowhere, does Wulfharth even mention Kagrenac, or the disappearance of the Dwarves. To me, this makes it a dubious source at best.

I admit that The Real Nerevar states that House Dagoth was allied with House Dwemer, but if this were true then it doesn't make sense for Nerevar to leave the tools with Voryn Dagoth after the battle.

As for Voryn Dagoth's mastery of the tools, I was under the impression that he was corrupted by the tools, not necessarily that he had discovered how to use them. If he had truly figured out in a matter of, say, days what it took Sotha Sil years to discover it seems unlikely that Nerevar and the Tribunal would have been able to separate him from the tools. It also seems unlikely that he would have remained dormant under Red Mountain for thousands of years before re-emerging.

This is an interesting argument. Given the amount of spin that the Tribunal later put on the battle, it is quite plausible that the Dunmer lumped all their opponents together.

A similar scenario could also explain why the Nordic account says that Nerevar and Dumac were allies, the Nords had to fight both of them. Both simply say, "If you're not with us you're against us, and if you're both against us then you might as well be allies."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8544635.stm

I agree that the Five songs aren't exactly the most relable source as far as details are concerned, but there are some points that in my opinion cast doubt on Voryn Dagoth's motives :

- every version points 'someone' Dagoth as the one who spilled the bean about the dwemer's plans
- even if the Five Songs misplaces them, how comes the Nords, who were basically kicked out of Morrowind at least a century before knew of Keening, and came quite close to properly describing Sunder and Wraithguard ?

as far as the alleged dwemer/soon-to-be dunmers alliance go, the battle was probably a confused thre-sided mess, with each side believing the other two were allied against him.

My impression is that the nord bard who wrote the song had access only to second-hand informations on what happened inside Red Mountain and mixed things up, but the basics of getting information from House Dagoth and moving to Red Moutain were genuine. Which places some serious doubt o, what Voryn Dagoth was doing.

I respect Darhken and Manu's point of view, but I prefer to think of Voryn Dagoth as a tragic figure. Check the scenario:

Voryn Dagoth learns what the Dwemer are doing under Red Mountain. Like the dutiful general he is he informs his King (Nerevar) and/or the Tribunal. It's safe to say that he probably didn't meet with the Nords because the only sources that say that he did are either a)suspect, or b)written after the fact by a Tribunal looking to stain him with controversy to cover up their own crimes.

At first Nerevar doesn't believe him. Nerevar makes a pilgrimage to Holomayan where Azura confirms the truth of Voryn's news. Even then, with both Voryn and the Tribunal urging him towards war, he seeks peace by going to speak with his friend, Dumac Dwarfking. The talks eventually break down and a battle becomes inevitable. At around this time the Dwemer recruit Nords and Orcs to stand with them at this battle. (The why for the Nords being the root of this thread.)

During the battle that follows, while his troops keep the Dwemer forces occupied, Nerevar and Voryn Dagoth sneak into Red Mountain where they confront Dumac Dwarfking and Kagrenac. Nerevar slays his friend Dumac and Kagrenac uses his tools on the Heart. Like an extinguished flame every Dwarf on Nirn (save one) ceases to exist. On the battlefield that green blur seen in the corner of the Nord's eyes are the Orcs hightailing it toward the border. Bearing down on the Nords are a whole lot of very angry Chimer. The Nords must have felt like the little boy without a chair when the music stops.

Inside the mountain Nerevar is wounded and unable to decide what to do with Kagrenac's discarded tools. He decides to solicit the counsel of the Tribunal and leaves Voryn Dagoth to guard the tools, neither mer knowing of their power. While Nerevar is gone the tools corrupt Voryn Dagoth as surely as they must have corrupted Sotha Sil and the rest of the Tribunal later. When a healed Nerevar returns with the Tribunal Voryn Dagoth won't allow them near the tools. Violence ensues; Voryn Dagoth is separated from the tools and retreats under Red Mountain to lick his metaphoric or physical wounds. There his corruption into Dagoth Ur is completed by the Heart.

Again this is a personal view and no better or worse than any other.

which still leaves a big question pending : who tipped the nords, with an argument pressing enough to supplement their strength with orc mercenaries ? The only argument strong enough would be the Heart of Lorkhan. which is THE one thing the dwemers would be close-lipped about, especially toward Lorkhan-worshipping humans.

Which strongly hints that someone amongst the chimer spilled the bean, wwho was very probably from House Dagoth. Wether he was acting on Voryn's behalf (or was Voryn himself) is debatable.

Note on Voryn Dagoth as a tragic hero : that vision of things remains compatible with my interpretation on him planning to get the tools for himself, or destroy them if he couldn't, all the while aiming for the good of the chimers as a whole. My personal opinion is that he never was a cardboard cutout traitor, but really wanted to help the chimers. Using the tools to get divine powers would be a way to do that (and certainly a nice perk). Of course it would means quite a lot of dead chimers, but from the beginning chimer culture has never been squamish about omelettes and egs. And not being the bad guy isnt the same as being an unalloyed good guy. Like just every important character in the TES unvierse, he's a mixed lot, and painting him as the poor innocent corrupted doesn't do him justice.

The Nords are on no one's side but Shor's. As in, Voryn tells them where the fight will be, they say thanks, and that's all the talk they have with any of the eastern mer. Its pretty clear they were a thrid party, since its inconceivable the Dwemer would be able to buy them, to ignore Wulfharth's prime motivation for being. The Dwemer would have no choice but to use Anumidium and so the repurcussions follow.

As for suspect sources, that the Nords and Tribunal would use the same figure is more than coincidence.

Voryn is still your tragic hero, even if he's a corrupt soldier, the two go hand in hand. Take Macbeth, for example.

If you're curious, because this has been done before, here's http://www.imperial-library.info/fsg/sindervelvinarticle1.shtml's work.

@manu -
That is the basis of my original question. Before we began to discuss the motivations of Voryn Dagoth the original question was: Why would the Nords ally themselves with the Dwemer, knowing what Kagrenac was doing in Red Mountain?

I don't know how you come to the conclusion that it was 'very probably' someone from House Dagoth. It could just as easily been someone from House Dwemer who disagreed with what Kagrenac was doing with the Heart, which ties in with what Yagrum Bagarn said later.

While I agree that Voryn Dagoth should not be painted as the poor innocent corrupted, I disagree that he should be painted as a mastermind orchestrating events for the purpose of obtaining power from the Heart.

@jackfrost -
It was Sinder Velvin's article that prompted my question. His conclusion is that Voryn Dagoth told Nerevar what transpired under Red Mountain, he never approached the Nords. From What Happened at Red Mountain ? anolysis, Chronology:

House Dagoth got along very well with the Dwemer, sometimes even possibly intermingling, even though the Dunmer of today do not believe such a thing. Either way, Voryn was quite friendly with the Dwemer, but he was more loyal to his lord, Nerevar.

TBasilisk says that: Voryn Dagoth might have tricked the Nords and Orcs into coming to Red Mountain for land and booty. He also says that this was all a part of Nerevar's brilliant strategy and that he took advantage of the big battle between Nords, Orcs, Chimer, and Dwemer by slipping into the Sixth House Citadel unnoticed.

This ties into your theory of the Nords as a third party who had very little contact with the mer controlling the battle. Still, it seems to give Voryn Dagoth too much credit for the events to suit my taste. Almost like later writings by the Tribunal laying blame for everything evil at the doorstep of House Dagoth.

The Five Songs of King Wulfharth mention a "Dagoth Devil". And this particular source (a Nord one !) is unlikely to have been altered by a Tribunal cover-up...


This is dubious. From the few we know about it, the dwemer worldview was highly specific and does not sit too well with the idea of risking to empower a bunch of Lohrkan-worshipping humans with the long-lost Heart of their god.

Again you all seem to take the fact that Wulfharth credits Voryn Dagoth with approaching the Nords as gospel while ignoring the fact that Wulfharth also says that Nerevar killed Voryn Dagoth inside Red Mountain during the battle! How can you credit it with truth in this one aspect while ignoring the glaring falsehoods of the rest of the Nord's account?

As for my statement about House Dwemer, I only said that I could just as easily make a case for them by citing the testimony of an eyewitness.

Yeah. But then again disapearanse of whole race might not fit either.



Just maybe Kaegrenac's side had more support. So losing side, maybe just handful of Dwemer, which opposes use of Heart was forced to make something drastic? Like invite Nords, which surely would react. Nerevar consulted Dumac and Azura both, so Chimer side might have seemed to take passive role in eyes of rebels. Rendering Nords as next direction to plead "help" from. Time to worry about hiding Heart or killing Nords later, saving Dwemer race first.

Bit more about this and what questions and possible answers it might offer:

Sure this is just one limbing theory, which might tell why both Nords and Dunmer see Dwemer as allied with their enemies in their own stories. What it would require would be civil-war within race of Dwemer, other side allying with Nords, while other with Chimer. Question to be asked: Why they allies as they did? Why remain allied with Nords when Chimer came there? Why there isn't any story about civil-war, not outside Red Mountain aro with-in? I guess there isn't much anything which would support idea of open civil-war so that ieda has to be ditched.

How ever theory isn't totally dead by now: In Red Mountain there might have been just handful of Dwemer rebels, who don't dare to rise up openly against Kagrenac but instead open gate for Nerevar (in this case). Aim might just have been to get Kagrenac and his lot killed and get tools into hands of rebels. Which atleast partially failed... atleast from part that Dwemer race would keep living on Tamriel.

Surely this is not most reliable explanation. Lots of speculation by Not-The-Most-Sharp-Tool-In-The-Shed.

Because while a Nord leader would have first-hand, accurate informations about why he decided to come to the battle (making this part of the Songs accurate), he would have only second or third-hand or even only wild guesses about what happened inside Red Mountain and what were the actions of Nerevar, Voryn Dagoth and the Tribunal because he was not with them - this is the more extravagant parts of the Song.

I think that Voryn Dagoth was not "corrupted by the tools he safeguarded", but by using them somewhat improperly on the Heart (applying informations garnered while cultivating dwemer friendship) while Nerevar was away consulting with the three usual supects, that he refused to hand them back not because of his oath but because he thought he needed to better attune himself to the Heart, that his physical form was subsequently destroyed but that the connexion he already established with the Heart allowed him to tap it's power to come back. And that at some point in the sequence he lost his mind, or at least underwent a change of perspective drastic enough that his later actions appers as deranged to more conventionnal/limited minds.

Exactly! It's not the best theory, but it is certainly more in keeping with what we know to be true than The Five Songs of King Wulfharth, or the later writings of the Tribunal.


Ah, but in the Five Songs of King Wulfharth he was with them inside Red Mountain. According to Wulfharth it was Lorkhan, Wulfharth, and Voryn Dagoth allied against Nerevar, Dumac, and Alandro Sul. Wulfharth's take on the battle that follows:

Wulfharth cannot hit Sul, but Sul delivers a mortal blow to Wulfharth as Wulfharth shouts Sul blind. Voryn Dagoth slays Dumac (?) but not before Sunder (presumably wielded by Dumac, Wulfharth makes no mention of Kagrenac) is able to strike the Heart making it vulnerable. Dumac's death enrages Nerevar and causes him to turn away from Lorkhan and kill Voryn Dagoth. While his back is turned Lorkhan lands a mortal blow on Nerevar. Nerevar, dying but not yet dead, uses Keening to cut out the Heart.

I'm not trying to be a jerk or deliberately dense about this, but this cannot be the way the events transpired which is why I continue to say that Wulharth can't be trusted.

That Battle in Red Mountain is more poetic license, but it isn't false. Wulfharth/Lorkhan was in Red Mtn., as the Heart. Lorkhan's heart was again being torn from him by acts of betrayal. Also, recall the damage done to those who tamper with the Heart without the instruments. That passage about the battle essentially means they dikeed around with the Heart, and everyone got their butts handed to them, by Lorkhan screaming bloody-betrayal in their faces (through the Heart's Tones).

Voryn and the Tribunal likely wouldn't share the intel on the instruments with Nerevar and Sul, hoping they would kill themselves. Nerevar, unluckily, had to be killed in cold blood.