There is a question that has confused me a bit for a little while. One of the lore-books on pelinal (I don't remember for sure which, but I think it is the song of pelinal) made mention of the ayleid kings after he had killed Umaril and insulted them greatly falling on him and cutting him into eight peces because, as it states 'they were obsessed with this number' (not probably an exact quote)

My question is, why? What is so big and important about the number eight that the ayleids were obsessed with it? Is there simply something here I am missing?

It's the spokes of the hub, of Mundus. And no one wants more than to get out of the spokes.

There are eight Aedra (do not let the Twice-Faced King fool you), and there are 8 spokes to the staff of Chaos, which is the wold-finder. It's just all symbolic. Eight ways to Walk-Like-This, Sermon number eight is a slight revelation to the doom we read of in Sermon 3, etc etc.

The eight divines... You know.

That's my guess.

Numerology. Basically what it is.

Expansion? It goes deeper than that. Basically is overshooting it. That's fundamentals.

Eh, was really just a lazy post. I'll expand a lil bit on my idea.

8 together (can) make 1, as in the Eight Divines making, or rather contributing to, Nirn. As in the eight pieces of the Staff of Chaos making, well, the Staff of Chaos. As in the Eight Spokes forming the infrastructure of the Wheel, which turned sideways is an "I," which is One. As in the eight provinces surrounding Cyrodiil, which is one.

In the end, that's really just me rambling.

See, I always saw the White-Gold as the center of the *mythopoeic* universe. But the hub within the hub makes me think more of 1 and 1, which is to say, 11.

From said hypothesis:



Numerology is really nothing, becuase we already know it's there. It's like a sidewalk, and history is the cracks in the sidewalks, where there are break points needed to maintain stability. Or, more so, feasibility. Anyone can assume that what the numbers mean is more so the people and animals who tread the sidewalk. All different, with different meanings, purposes, goals, hair, eyes, lips, noses, and yes, even boobies.
If you were to take into account the number of spokes for the hub, it would also strike as funny that the KAGRENAC is spelled with 8 letters. One for each string he plucked into the accords of madness. Only a simple coincidence, perhaps. But we all know that numbers are power. Hell, once you've got CHIM, you see that all you and everything that has ever existed or non-existed (for the purpose of un-stars getting a little attention here) is just that. Numbers.

2^0 = 1 The Godhead
2^1 = 2 The Duality
2^2 = 4 The Tetragrammaton
2^3 = 8 The Creators
2^4 = 16 The Demons

Numerology means nothing, coincidence by imagination.



The Staff of Chaos is old and irrelevant, that it shares the it's image with the Tower and towers is another coincidence.



The number of Aedra. Their gift-limbs to the world. The Spokes of the Wheel. The Plane(t)s orbiting Nirn.

Oh, come on Prow, the idea that the Staff is nothing but a normally enchanted magical artifact is BATW.

Mini-Tower, anyone?

That's why I went with 'world-finder'. It's easy enough to poke at references, but at least I'm trying to go somewhere with it. It's special, not old and useless becuase it's from the first TES game or whatever your reasoning behind that statement is. It's still lore, so I'm sticking with it. Reference to the fact that it's spread out all over the center of the world, Tamri-el, the Starry Heart. It's got to have some relevance to the focus-point. And also, to make another point about 1 and 1, look at the way it's stacked. In segments of lines. So the spokes are therefor still useless, even for this 'magical all-powerful Staff of Chaos', when going against another fighter. Moon Axel. Even then, he was born twice and was able to have his remains made into mystery wheels. I suspect each wheel had 8 spokes as well.

See also how Vivec happens to have 8 children he slays. The ninth being himself, or Nerevar. Depending on how you see the Book of Hours. But all-in-all, I have to say that even the smallest segment of numbers can mean something special.

6 Walking Ways, 6 legs of the scarab, 6 legs on Yagrum's crawler, Sermon 6 is just oh-so much more fodder for that cannon as well.
Boethiah and Azura are the principles of the universal plot, which is begetting, which is creation, and Mephala makes of it an art form. six. Three letters. Three Tribunals, three aspects. It's all pretty much substantial, not that it all ties together in some major crack-induced conspiracy, but it's still there. The love of one is equal to the love of thousands, if it wants to be, in a way.
Two moons, 8 towers, etc etc. I think we all get it now.

Shh, you'll ruin MK's secret!

Also, since I haven't seen you before, and your apparent knowledge of the subject matter suggests intelligent lurking, http://www.imperial-library.info/dogate/til_fishystick.jpg

Oh, but of course. I'll let the summoned angles and the packs upon packs of non-filtered cigarettes work their magic. Maybe for his birthday this year Vivec will get him something useful, like a gallon of JD or something. We need more propaganda. Where's my 5th Era rock kingdom?!?!?! I demand non-run-of-the-mill/generic-fantasy-crap Dwarves!!!

And thank you. I've been into lore for quite a while, but never have I gotten a Fishy Stick. May go well with some Fishy Sauce...

Yea that works, but things originally seem to have been the other way around.

The Complete WWYWTDB suggests that a Staff or Tower appeared to the selective, so the staff of Chaos being made out of eight part plus a gem seems to have lead to the Tower and Wheel symbolisms but those don't rely on the Staff of Chaos.

It turns the Staff of Chaos from something fundamental to the world, to something that can be pretty much detached without any problems. Just another extraordinary artifact.

Is anything really fundamental to the world, though? I see towers getting sparsely thrown down here and there, Earth Bones being wrangled for centuries, and living tree-cities taking firm, firm root into the ground. Empowerment is like a toothbrush in TES, and defying belief is the toothpaste. Brush on, you crazy diamond.

"Eight, Eight, the burning eight. Between Sunday and Monday there lies a day so dark it will devastate."

Yeah, I wish Sesame Street was emo, too.

POSTMODERNISM LOL



Well, that might be stretching it. I was just thinking that the Staff of Chaos could be a myth-echo of THE Tower from the point of view of a particular cultural identity/ideology -- that is, like the other Aldmeri Towers. The difference being that THIS particular Tower would have been smaller in physical size, and may not represent a particular cultural identity's point of view but, rather, use the point of view and base identity of an individual (it's original creator, whose name I will look up and edit in) in its place. If that is possible and even makes sense.

See, the problem with my theory is that it assumes that this great enchanter had such a naturally mythopoeic worldview that it could, given a myth-echo of the Zero Stone and some fine-tuning, actively channel creatia and, therefore, become an integral part of existence, just as the other Towers helped shape existence through their cultural outlook. Is that even possible?

I'd like it to be.

Also, the Jewel of Fire as its Stone, totally.



Well, yeah, that's why I just bull****ed my own proto-Monkey Truth to make it "essential" and worthwhile to own for a megalomaniac with a god-complex.




Well, technically no, nothing is fundamental in a world that is fundamentally shaped by flowing myths. However, as it stands, the Staff of Chaos is just a shiny enchanted staff that was somehow connected to Jagar Tharn and somehow allowed him access to some pocket realm of Oblivion and was enough leverage for him to make a deal with Dagon. By making the Staff a small Tower, and therefore an active agent in that myth-making process, it lends credence to its plot relevance, special powers over Oblivion (and, therefore, creation), and a whole slew of other plotholes that the devs probably wouldn't patch up anyway.

But this isn't even fanon yet in anybody's book other than mine, so I wonder if my words fall upon deaf ears.

EDIT: Um...yeah, off-topic. 8 is important because the Ayleids kind of had an 8 fetish and made it mythically important. So there.

This is possible. See KOW and how he had his Necromancer's moon turn into a 'mini-tower' to channel himself through. Not the same as the Enantiomorph syndrome, but resembles it in a way that is like saying 'Talos got to become a God, while Manni got to influence one.' If the idea is passed on by the creator, who know exactly WHAT could have happened. Like stated earlier in the thread, you'd never know the difference between two people switching places if each took the other's role naturally and without a problem. Sentient weapons aren't what I'm going for here, more like a provision. The staff is a key to a lock, and behind the lock is a gem that can alter credence. Or perhaps more like give you the power to strike a deal with Daedric princess. Maybe he just got lucky.



Certainly. See how Keening and Sunder both directly and indirectly altered time as it was known. But it's more than a mythopoeic outlook that one needs. It's more like a central point of understanding, of knowing what was going to go on if you made it such. I think that it's possible, at any rate, for it to shape existence. Sotha Sil supposedly shaped the cosmos from his clockwork city, and you can bet he used enchantments made just by him just for this task. Self-sustainment was probably harder for him than actual shaping of the world. Cultural, however, is a little stickier. Maybe it's just the Towers that make a certain place the way it is. Vvardenfell is a cage for the Heart, Cyrodiil is a pedestal for the Beacon, Valenwood is a nursery for the growing Love-Tree, etc etc. Maybe the Towers themselves shape a way to help suite them best. Even before they're ever made. Think of it like this; there are two kinds of Towers. Natural, and man(elf)made. If the natural ones are no better than the constructed counterparts, then who's to be the wiser as to which came first? Not like ANYONE but the gods can remember that far back, nor been alive for so long.



Maybe, maybe not. There is always a little further digging that can be done to emphasize with what you seek. Maybe you're onto something. Something like numerology with a hint of totalitarianism. If one can shape the fabrics of time to make him and his two friends gods, I wouldn't be so quick to say that a simple shiny staff, or all eight pieces of it, could be so quickly cast aside. Especially when the pieces are lying dormant in the most magically-enriched places on the known planet. Attracted there, or simple game mechanics? Maybe a little of both. But this is well before Oblivion, so there's always a chance.

Adventurous Putty:

I still think the staff of Chaos got outclassed by greater symbolism and just like the Kamehama attack, it's just not cool anymore. Opinions seems to differ.

Roaming Nomad:

Gow and the Necromancers moon a Mini-tower? What the hell are you talking about?

The Necromancers moon is just his god plane(t), shouldn't prevent him from appearing here on Nirn in corporal form.Although the idea that the Necromancers moon and Manimacro are different entities is a popular concept, it was thought up because there wasn't much of a fight in him. This however is caused by gameplay, not Lore.

Where the hell does it come from that Sunder and Keening alter time? It's the gods that are able to exert control over the events in the present and Sunder and Keening allow these gods to be created but they themselves don't alter time.

Pelinal being a devout (to the point of fanaticism) follower of the Eight Divines, he was obviously honouring their number.

I thought so too, but then someone posted that Worm Anchorite's note.

What about it? In the Necromancers Moon, the God of Worms is called the Renevant, the Necromancer's Moon and He allot. It even claims that He will return to the world in due time (right now) and kill all those who opposed him.

Which is sorta the plot of the Guild of Mages.

Well, Keening and Sunder are the conductors. It's their ability to reshape tonal architecture and tap through into the Heart, as well as the fact that they can alter mythopoeic bonds. It's like a powerhouse inside each one, and enchantments are what let them do that.

Also, it is not so far fetched to assume the Necromancer's Moon is a type of Tower. Because as it stands, Towers help sustain, among having influence on cultures. NM does just that. Sustains a grounding, for both KOW and GOW (which that ascension right there should be enough to spark a thought of possible power-housing) and it influences the flow of Magicka for them, among it's other little bits of helpfulness.

Oh...but the number eight...yeah...
Nah, I got nothing.

Not to be picky - but try the Real Bahrenziah - Staff and Horn given to a certain stolid Dunmer to Guard in Mournhold by Uriel was it? (sorry - read this about 10yrs ago) Then Jagar Tharn comes along and woopie - seduces Bahrenziah who is feeling a bit uppy 'cos she can't get inspired by her dearly beloved husband and she leads Jagar tharn down into the bowels of Mournhold to where the staff is guarded by yet another god.

You may be right in that Tharn recites an invocation in which he claims to be heir to it - but reading it it feels more likely he was just using Bahrenzaiah's presence there to fulfill a certain qualification. If it is the latter then it may be the only one with the real connection to it was Bahrenziah and her ancestors = she was of a truly ancient lineage and Jagar Tharn was always 'well I see you there with a rose in your teeth, just one more thin gypsy thief'...

The abbility of Sunder and Keening isn't to shape tonal architecture, it's to shape mythopoeia an art that is called Tonal Architecture, or rather Story Telling.

What ever else you are saying, it doesn't make sense. Are you actually a native English speaker?



There is only the God of Worms aka the Necromancers moon aka the Renevant aka Manimacro, because that is what the King of Worms aka Manimacro became. Manimacro is but a man who became a god, on par with say Vivec or Tiber Septim.

And yes it's far fetched to assume Manimacro is some sort of Tower because you're not providing any arguments for it. Towers are fairly well defined constructs, they're made in the image of the Adamantine towers by the various tribes of Aldmer.

What ever else you're saying doesn't make sense. You'd do well to source your explanations, not just to help the people who are reading it but also to make sure you don't slip up.

It's still shaping the same thing. I don't need to cite sources for this, as it's the same thing. It's saying that they are what caused the Dragon Brake. Sure, it was the tampering with the Heart of Lorkhan that caused it, but it wouldn't have been possible without the tools.


Yes. I don't see really how anything else I'm saying doesn't make sense. Tell me what you don't understand, and I'll try to explain to better for you.



But I thought his transcendence was different from the Enantiomorph/CHIM. I thought he had a power-house (a conductor, something to channel its energy into him to let him achieve the status of a god, like the Heart, only not a stone) to help him along the way. If I'm wrong, which I could be, then my theory is useless. But I have never explicitly seen a source that said either way was right or wrong.



I'm not saying a Tower, but a Tower-like-box, if you will. This whole thing got started by the Staff of Chaos, when I said it was important and you decided to say it wasn't. I am honestly lost as to why you don't get that what I'm saying is there *may* just be some powerful things like that. Look how the Colossal Soul Gem powered Numidium. Is that not like a pocket-sized Tower, then? Dagoth Ur was juts making it easier by building the construct AROUND the actual stone, making Akuhlakhan the pocket-sized Tower. It's not too hard to really see that the Soul Gem had power, and Akuhlakhan WOULD have had power, making them both viable sources for Tower-like properties. If Akuhlkhan get up and running, it would have spread the Corprus disease and changed the world forever. Is that not what a Tower does, changes the shape of the land it inhabits, the way life goes on around it? So again, I'm not saying Manimorco is a tower, that's ridiculous. I'm saying that they (meaning, Manimarco, King of Worms, and God of Worms, respectively) all used a certain something to get to where they were. It probably takes a lot more power to jump up to each stage, hence why Manimarco didn't just turn into God of Worms right off the bat.



Sourcing is useless until I feel the need to show you something. There's nothing to show, as it's all fairly common knowledge. I'm just spreading a little CHIM-sauce on the idea, if you will.