Added Integration... the description part may be a bit too long, seems to have extended a tiny bit outside the box, or something. Feel free to shorten it a bit, get rid of redundant info, or whatever.

edit: Well... it is about the same size as the Alyeid Steps description, maybe just find a way to get rid of the format error in the last box. Prolly some formatting screw up I did..


EDIT 2: I see the stretching now, someone one put a code box or something for Bartholm, and that's what's causing that.

I added the Massive quests (aside from Integration) and fixed some of the links in the Large quests section. I also changed the date format - sorry Saebel, but I can't wrap my head around that backwards date format; day/month/year is the one most often used the world over, so I went with that instead. Oddly, if you exceed the 30K character "limit", it quits giving you the message - it only shows it if you get near, but not over. Kinda stupid, but whatever...

Problem is Walker, the folks over here in the us go month/day/year - that's why I set it to year / month / day. That way everyone gets offended the same. And in my opinion, it's a big problem down the line if we don't agree on a standard. People aren't going to know one from the other. Is 6/7/2012 June 7th or July 6th? The year / month / day is becoming more and more standard, partially to bypass that problem, but also in computing, it's much easier to sort data in that structure without having to rely on date conversions or confusion. I'd really prefer for it to be the other way, but that should be a group decision.

And also, you may want to ask for the reasoning behind a decision like that before just changing it. Just a suggestion for the future.

For some of us, it's you guys using the backward format

If you simply used the three letter month abbreviations (Jan, Feb, etc.), you would eliminate the confusion completely no matter which order they were presented in. Though I much prefer the YYYY-MM-DD format, as long as you zero pad the single digits.

Edit: Umm. This does presume the Gregorian calendar, right?

-Dubious-

Maybe we should use the Elderscrolls calendar, just to REALLY confuse the heck out of everyone.

If you by Small/Mid/Big/Massive do *NOT* mean the file-size but instead the playtime, it might be a very good idea, especially for the sake of us non-native-english-speakers, to make very clear in the naming cathegories that you are talking about playtime (or whatever other criteria you are using) and not about if is it Small/Mid/Big/Massive to download.

Exactly this. It is definitely not the file-size. It has to do with the number of quests/play time/complexity. It's a judgment call.

So maybe calling it scope instead of size - I can see how non English speakers could confuse that.

I like scope. I'd second that one. It's doubtful the non-english-native-speaking types would confuse it with the mouthwash.

Just had a look at the Discussion page on UESP and saw this...


Disappointing

Any thoughts an alternative Wiki to use for this?

How about doing what they suggest for the time being and have that page as a sort of a community effort? Maybe mention it on the page in the userspace or something that it's more of a community effort than a sole person?

Just an idea, not sure how good it is though.

I'm in the US too. The military uses that format - that's how I got used to it.

Sorry. I had a feeling I should've done that instead of just taking charge and making changes.

There was already a suggestion to move it to the Nexus Wiki if this happened. Fortunately, the Nexus uses the same software, so the coding is the same - we could port it over with no problems. Or we could just add it to an authored list like they suggest. Doesn't much matter to me.

Must've missed that. Yeah, that'd work too.

Would an authored list be editable by multiple people, or just the one person? I guess I'm not all that clear on that point.

Personally I'm thinking lets just put it on the Nexus. It'd be a cut and paste job. Amd I already got permission from them to put up a wiki of recommended mods for new users.

Now that I think about it, I'd lime to open a can of worms. If we add one more category to the quests template, that being something like "recommended for:" and options of "beginners", "advanced players", "experts", in terms of the overall installation and challenge to use, that might be good. Then the quest list could be a branch of a larger tree of recommended mods, and the core template could be the same, with slight tweaks depending on the branch. For instance, we have Quests, divided into Small, Medium, Large, Massive scopes. There could also be Game Mechanics, divided into Combat, Magic, Stealth, Economics, Leveling.

The Unofficial Recommended Mods Of Interest List (TURMOIL)
- general guidelines
- Quest Mods
- Game Mechanics
- Landscapes and Weather
- GUI
- Sounds
- Textures
- Races, Creatures, NPCs
etc.

We certainly don't have to deal with any of those now, but if we kept that in mind as part of an overall goal, this could be the start of the one stop shop to help collate all of this information, with a single main link that would be suitable to give to anyone, new and experienced users alike. New users could search for the "Beginner" tag in the category that interests them, for example.

edit: each major branch could have it's own gamesas discussion form for pitching mods and establishing standards, with one master forum for the overal project. So topics could be: TURMOIL - Quests, TURMOIL - Game Mechanics, TURMOIL - General Discussion, etc.

It's listed under one user, but you can add a list of other people who have access to it. The link I posted above has all the details.

Works for me. In any case, we'll need to get the rest of it converted; I did the Mid-sized mods yesterday (but didn't post them), so I'll work on the Small stuff today. And yes, I'll keep the old date format.

I was going to suggest also adding a level recommendation, but that can be added in the description - a lot of the ones we have already are noted.

Sounds cool. Lots of work, but a good idea nonetheless. One thing that should be a requirement for any category: NO MAJOR BUGS. That would include: missing resources, bugs that cause the game to freeze/crash, dirty edits, etc. One of the Small quests on dev's list has a bad script that alters combat behavior for other NPCs (makes them freeze in place); dev recommends disabling it after you've done the quest. Personally, that's not the kind of mod I'd recommend other players to use. Conflicts/patches with major mods (FCOM, e.g.) should also be noted in the description.

Known conflicts is not a bad idea, but isn't the mod author responsible for tracking that sort of information, and on their thread? I'd be concerned that there would be some reported conflict on the recommendation that is either inaccurate or out-dated that ends up steering someone clear of the mod.

As for recommended for, maybe the simpler solution is to just include a "beginner friendly" tag in the tags section. That way it stands out, is easy to find, and doesn't requiring altering the template.

I think that moving ot to the Nexus wiki sounds like a good idea - especially before too much work is done on it.

Okay, well I have to go to work for a few hours, so perhaps while I'm there everyone can mull it over. If you all like the TURMOIL idea, I can put up a loose structure later today with a link back to this forum for discussion and questions, and at least copy/paste over the UESP pages.

Yeah, I'm not sure why I listed conflicts - there are bound to be lots of those, whereas patches are more useful.

Another question: Are we listing house mods with a quest to get them? Glenvar Castle is a prime example of this, but it's on the TOQL. I'm just wondering, how do we distinguish between "house mod with a quest" (Glenvar Castle, Castle West Weald) and "quest mod that adds a house as a reward" (Castle Ravenpride, VHB). IMO, if the mod has only a house (castle, manor, hideout, whatever) and a series of quests to get it/upgrade it/whatever, then it falls into the former; if there's an actual backstory with other stuff to do besides get/upgrade the house, then it falls into the latter. Opinions?

Edit: I suppose I should expand this to "mods with a quest" as opposed to "quest mods". OOO and Better Cities are examples of mods with quests; the major focus is the level-scaling overhaul or city expansion/beautification, respectively; the quests are additional features.

Perhaps just an indication of whether the quest(s) are the primary focus of the mod or whether they are secondary to the mod. (That would apply to your house question as well as your OOO etc statement). Enhanced Economy is a good example of the latter, too. The randomly-generated merchant quest structure is unique afaik.

Actually, since this is a quest mod list, maybe just a guideline for submissions to indicate if the mod is not primarily a quest-focused mod.

I got the Small quests done (not posted; I'll wait until we move to a new location).

I moved The Contented Prisoner to Mid-Sized (new village, 5 quests), Hoarfrost Castle to Mid-sized (7 quests, plus a huge castle), and Mighty Umbra to Small (I took a look at it, and it just extends the questline; it doesn't even add new locations).

I left A Change in Management off the list because dev/akm (and others) noted that it has a bad script that alters AI packages.

Feudal Empire was never completed and only contains one suit of armor (Marine o'Keefe posted that in the comments), so I left that part off the KotWS entry.

Oblivion Tournament is a mod with a quest, not a quest mod, but I added the entry until we make a decision on that whole thing.

TolawaylAyleidCity_Quest.esp deletes a door in the Cheydinhal Castle Private Quarters (00031D50). The author said he used a copy of the castle, which turns out to be a direct copy - he didn't create a new FormID, so when he deleted the door in his mod's cell, it got deleted in vanilla as well. This is probably fixable; it's on the list, but we can remove it later if necessary.

Son of a!!!!!

They already deleted the UESP wiki page before I could get off work to copy it over. Did anyone happen to save a copy of it?

Edit: Never mind. They deleted the link to it, not the page itself. (yeesh)

I read that they aren't actually deleted but more hidden. I can try to pull it up another way until we can get in touch with them. Give me a few minutes. I'll report back one way or the other.

Time to go digging!

Edit:

Got it. Not sure if it's a cached copy or not, but I got it.

Also edit:


Well, I pulled it anyways.

I'll hold onto it until and unless you say otherwise.

Update: For some reason, TES Nexus is ignoring my user name / pw for the wiki, so it won't let me create any pages. I've sent off an e-mail to Dark0ne.