Considering some of the attributes were absolutely pointless, of course i do.

Either way, the perk system should allow for some interesting additions.

No I like the perk system also.

It reminds me a lot of Star Wars Galaxies where you were free to pick and choose the specifics of our character progression.

I would like to see some sort of "retraining" option where you can completely wipe your talents and then reallocate them to your liking.

I'm not a huge fan of how the system turned out, I find it boring.

My biggest problem with the system is the disconnect between earning perks and spending perks. Essentially I've found there have been numerous times where I've earned a perk but cannot spend it in the skill tree I want until that skill levels to an appropriate threshold. For me this makes levelling uninteresting because you may not gain anything immediately from it (the 10 points doesn't really cut it). The two levelling systems, skills and character level don't seem to gel well together.

I don't know if I specifically miss attributes, I was disappointed pre-launch that they weren't going to feature prominently in the game. I'll still prefer to have them as I like the choices they provided.

I like the new perk system, I think it's great.

Everyone has an opinion, mine is that I prefer this Skyrim perk system.

there was a definate implication on your part that Arena as an argument was irrelevant. Saying "Should have specified, elder scrolls games that people played. I don't know how Elder Scrolls: Redguard works either." Is an appeal to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason. It's literally the definition of an ad hominem.

But that aside even in Oblivion on back, stats did more than just affect HP, MP, and SP.

You obviously didn't read what i said. I don't care about attributes. Abilities are abilities. I just think the way the "Perk" system is arranged is a little to linear, and pointlessly limited. what I was saying they should have done was to make the Perks effective by points spent making them better, and making all of them accessible at the beginning instead of having to buy one to get another. Now that's freedom. For example: In the heavy armor tree you have to spend a Precious Point to get cushioned, and fists of steel.
what if you never ever use your fists? what if you don't care that your fall damage is halved? You have to practically waste points that could have been better used elsewhere. smithing...what if you like how the Steel plate armor looks? well too bad you have to waste points in the light armor section to get that heavy armor, and you should probably not even bother because you can get orcish armor at the same time anyway which has better stats.

did you know that I have never been able to use the speech, or pickpocketing skill tree because if I were to do so, Everything would kill me by about level 15 to 20? and i have never needed to spend any points in lockpicking. no reason for it. with enough picks, and a lot of patience, i can open master locks with starting skill. and again wasting points for abilities I will not use so i could get somehting like golden touch. this is just a few among the many problems I found with this "incredible" Perks system.

I think the perk system has a lot of potential for future TES games. I disagree with the majority of the decisions to "simplify" the game. I usually would prefer to have more options than less. So the ideal world would be to have perks and attributes. But I think we have to accept the reality that the current trends is towards simplicity rather than deeper gameplay. Bioware is doing this in an even more drastic way than Bethesda. Look at ME2 vs ME1 or DA:O vs DA 2.

If I have to chose between attributes and perks, I think I would go with perks. As I said, Bethesda has room to make the system better. I think the game should have more perk points per level, but also more perks to chose from. Even if they don't want to make it too complex (as I discuss above), then they could at least make sure most perks are useful and/or unique.

I like them.

I can still customize my play style just as much but the Perks feel more intuitive and like a better pay off with an immediate effect when I lvl up.

Yes, I like the perk system.

Huh?

Morrowind and Oblivion were the games where you could just spam cast a spell to level it up. It wasn't an accomplishment to max something at 100.

Skyrim at least requires you to use your spell in combat to get experience for it, not just spam cast a conjuration spell as you walk between towns.

Argumentum ad populum at best.

Besides, when you complained about it I revised my argument since I've never played Arena or Daggerfall, instead of taking your tactic: "Why bring my A game against someone who's obviously mentally invalid?"

Also, you've still never listed all the great things about attributes. Which, since we're on the subject, is a textbook red herring.

I think the best part is that you have to choose your perks carefully and you can't have them all. If you don't go for levelling too far beyond level 50 then you really have to choose carefully. Being able to get all the perks would ruin the character system.

Still ad hominem and you're just digging yourself into a hole now. I never denied what it was I was doing.

And you're also flat out wrong. I listed one example and even a link that supported my claims that attributes did more than just added HP, MP, and SP. As to "great things" that's obviously subjective and therefor irrelevant because you'll not concede to my stance now, because you're taking out the factual basis of my argument, undermining it with "obscure" phrases that are seen just about daily in online forums. Hell "ad hominem" and "red herring" are practically meme's. All that's left now is hyperbole, and you'll have used the trifecta of deflection argument.

Yes, you are the only one.

Perks already existed, the point limitation is new.

The perk system is nice, and I hope they expand upon it in future expansions, releases. It also helps prevent someone from becoming a master of everything before you're halfway through the game.

Debate about the terms here aside - I like them too.

Or more correctly - I like the new system. It isn't perfect (oh no, it very much isn't), but it is a good change. I hope Bethesda stick with it, refines it, and see to live up to its potential.

I hope they don't go back to the previous style attribute system, or if they really must go to something like it, it is a completely overhauled or re-imagined one - "tradition" alone is a poor justification ("an X style attribute system has always been a fundamental part of RPGS!") as is "fit it ain't broke, don't fix it" (it might not have been completely broke but it was far from perfect, and it isn't fixing something that ain't broke if you are replacing it with something that works better and/or has greater potential for growth).



Agreed.



Indeed. I understand numbers will be inherent mechanical components of games for forever (or at least the long term), but the less I have to be reminded the things my character are doing comes down to an 8 in the strength or intelligence column and some virtual dice the better. Or be reminded that my reward for slaying Grimjaw the Unassuming is the sense of satisfaction that comes from halting the plans of eeevil plus the chance for me to add some numbers to other numbers so I swing my sword harder

I understand I will make direct decisions that shape my characters growth and development as levels rise (if it is a game with levels - I love you Galsiah's Character Development mod for Morrowind), but I want my, the player's, choices dressed in such a way they don't stand out as much as number adding.

I want seamless character growth. I want fluid character growth. I character growth based on journey and actions (natural character growth). If I can't have it perfectly like that, I want as close as possible.



I would have to disagree there. One could say they didn't like them, but they were about as pointless in previous ES games as wheels are pointless on a car.



Virtually no good RPG lets you reassign things you select at levels up etc at a later date if you regret them, unless you saved your game before you assigned them, regardless of the character mechanics in use.

As for getting all the perks... why? No, I can understand the people that like to get everything, but they are there for you to guide your character down paths and play styles. If you had them all...

Eh. I guess if you wanted them fine, but Bethesda has no real reason to include that in the game design and it isn't much of a real issue. Like saying "and you can't be boss of all the guilds in Morrowind, if you play this game for such a long time you deserve to be able to be boss of everything".

Its okay, but I don't like the fact that you have to take many useless perks just to reach the ones you want even though you have high enough skill. Its extremely annoying -____

The second part of my post was just a general statement of how I feel about Perks/Attributes in general, not aimed at you in particular. Sorry, should have been more clear about that. And I agree that the perks system isn't perfect, there are some things that need to be changed, but overall I think it's a fairly decent implementation.

If Bethesda offered me a choice between Skyrim's system, or the vanilla Oblivion system, with no other options, they'd wind up trying to make a game without levels.
If they offer me a choice between Skyrim and a smooth leveling mod from Oblivion, Skyrim's system is history.

The only leveling system I've played that I find less interesting and fun than Skyrim would be the generic JRPG system where levels = semi-randomized gains in a bunch of stuff, and you only care about 2 of the 10 things affected.

I enjoy gaining levels in The Witcher because I work for the levels. Much, much more than Skyrim. The nature of the upgrades is... similar, but The Witcher gives me 3 upgrades/level, and 1/3 the levels.
I enjoy my levels in Dragon Age more because the option for active benefits (ie, new abilities) is vastly superior to 280 possible passive upgrades. The irony is that there's very little freedom to make a really unique fighter. Thing is, my "straight-up sword-and-board" Matthew from Dragon Age feels more special than my more customizable Isaac in Skyrim.
I enjoy my levels more in Fallout 3, because the perks are fun and stylish.
I enjoy gaining levels more in Oblivion, because I can wait until I'm good and ready to take them without the game spamming me with directions on how to gain a level (and I have a nice level system thanks to modders)

I'd rather have attributes than the perk system we have right now. I'd rather have attributes than an improved perk system. I'd rather have no levels than what Bethesda fed us in Oblivion.

Right.

The system in Skyrim is designed to build characters and not just spamming and managing stats.

I like the talent trees (I mean "perks" :3), save for the fact a lot of them are not very useful.

You added an example from Arena and I adjusted my argument to only include modern Elder Scrolls, as in the ones made this millennium. I've never played Arena and would wager most people who complain about the removal of attributes haven't either. I can't confirm or deny how important they were in that game (or in daggerfall for that matter) but in Morrowind and Oblivion they are totally unnecessary.

Did they add JUST to HP, MP, and SP? No they did a few more things, things which have all fallen under the umbrella of the perk system now.

But did they do anything well enough to be missed at all? Were they really representative enough of the attributes they were named for that getting rid of them is some great loss? Hell no. When every character could max out pretty much all attributes no matter what style of game they were playing the attributes become nearly meaningless. Increasing attributes only increased a few derived stats, now you just increase those derived stats directly (either by increasing them on level up or picking a perk for them).

I think its great, oki its a major step away from the old RPG paper based system but it means you cant use all your feats, in developing your Mercurial Greatsword use before you have even found one

If you want to be good with Destruction, you have to use it.

It's a hark back to Runequest & Chaosium and isn't bogged down with dull paperwork and skills you dont use

A lot less intimidating to newbs