Well at least from my experience (although I am only about level 25), I survive with a strategic use of destruction, restoration, alteration, illusion and found potions. My character doesn't do conjuration because it is too much like necromancy and he hates necromancy. Although I do often bring a companion (like Lydia) on longer more difficult adventures to act as a fellow adventurer and someone to help carry the loot.

Storm

It is not a viable option in almost any game to play as a Nuker, it doesn't make much sence if you could.

Your expecting to wreck every enemy while using novice level healing spells for losing hp while being able to tank every mob, which sorry but mages aren't ment to, you aren't Gandolf the Grey/White. I'd like to make a 2H only class on master and only have perks in that tree, think i'll have an easy time? I'd think so with that kind of mind set.

Want to nuke and be a god? get to level 81 and have the difficulty on Novice.

Well explain the issue then; that's the reason I created the thread! I don't think "people" have one particular complaint, as you can see by the responses. You say you want to be a "nuker" but you don't want to use a summon or a companion or (I'm guessing) any armor or health. In my view, a nuker should be squishy in those circumstances. That's how it is in almost every RPG I've played. If you are going to be a skinny guy running around without any armor, you need to have someone up front to take the hits.

And again, I don't think this is the fault of Destruction. If you were a guy using a sword but didn't have any armor or health and refused to bring any help or block any attacks, you'd be dying just as quickly.

There are a few tactical considerations when you face multiple mobs, especially if one manages to get a shield up. Also, bears can't be completely stunlocked and if they get too close to you things can get--hairy.

I don't use Conjuration or Companions.

[edit] On default difficulty, Destruction is viable with Impact, 50% damage perks and Adept level skills, so 100% casting cost reduction isn't really necessary.

Are these 800-damage bows things you can find in the game, or is this just using the crafting exploit? People mention these godlike weapons but I haven't seen anything anywhere close to that strong so far.

I haven't used the perk myself, but from my understanding it's only really overpowered in a one on one situation. And any player using any build can win a one on one situation. Impact is designed to give you group control, so that when a mage gets mobbed he has a fighting chance.

The problem with destruction is that as a spell school that solely does damage, it's outclassed by other solely damaging skills (one-handed, two-handed, archery) because those other skills can actually increase their damage capabilities not just by perks (a better variety at that), but also by the skill itself raising. There is no difference in the amplification of spells, in any of the schools mind you, between a Master and a Novice. Using destruction as a means of damage is just inferior compared to other options, and that's the main problem.

The mages stop growing in power at lv 30 (+/- depending on what skills you level and when you get casting cost reduction gear). While you can easily get by simply by spamming the spells you have, sometimes it would be nice to drop a nuke Lina Inverse style.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaXDTazc34Q&feature=related

I guess I also don't find it "lame" or "boring" either... it seems more interesting than melee or archery because you have more options, and the fact that I'm not an indestructible tank makes it more interesting. I think it's fun hurling bandits around with Ice Storm and coating the ground with a Wall of Flames or tricking some poor sap into walking over a Lightning Rune.

You must be new here? What about alteration? What about restoration? Why do people think that those that want to focus on destruction as a primary ONLY want to use destruction? I don't know how many times this has been said?

Also, what does any of that have to do with a topic about damage output? The discussion is about the difference in sheer damage - not damge/defense/utility.

But unlike other classes, you literally cannot be hit with relatively minor investments in illusion or conjuration. As a warrior, I have to bulk up my damage because as soon as I'm out of potions, I'm done for. With my mage, I cast mayhem and blast a few of the now destracted enemies with my damage spell of choice (chain lightning, I love that spell). Oh what's that? That one guy is coming after me now? Invisibility, get some distance and continue nuking. High level mages are literally easy mode. But you can't just pick up destruction, spam fireballs and complain when you get overwhelmed.

I wasnt talking about weapons there. Otherwise I would have said Spellsword.

Lightening rune and wall spells don't even tickle the enemy after level 30 for me, and are just a waste of time. I do play on master only though.


I would like all spells to scale and for master spells to be actually good.




Someone with 2h , 1h, shield, archery can also do all of those things you just mentioned.

Only they don't have to.

AND another - sigh...

The thread is about DAMAGE comparison. It would be nice if people stayed on topic. If you use weapons, do you need to use anything else other than that weapon to do your DAMAGE?

See where this is going?...

I think its fine as far as damage output. However, I don't like the fact that there are so few spells in general. Also, having to obtain a certain skill level before you can even be sold certain spells by a shop keeper is quite dumb.

high level it maybe broken but im reaching 30 and am fine, ive got a loner orc shaman that only uses fire and enchanting, so for alot of you is it that you cant hit with your fire balls or is it that your playing on master when the game would be better played on adept or apprentice?! just scale the difficulty depending on the character build to balance the game play, i have my shaman on normal, my warrior on hard and my gp character on easy. ive yet to try very easy or very hard, trying to leave of very hard so i can pump the difficulty for the end game.
Im sure somthing will be done as alot of users do serm to be unhappy and it would be for the best if at least all core choices are 100% playable. (as for dialogue for all those characters, that we wont see, which svcks. i dont just want lots of npc dialougue if ive got frell all so say back!!! yeah and "there more where that came from", what crap one liners?! rant over soz)
Anyway...
Hopfully any balence changes made dont create even more back lash...patchs so far not so great, ill not be downloading 1.3 just like i didnt download 1.2 not till ive read the forums, thanks to all the people that let other know about 1.2 by the way.

Indeed! Where do these people come from??? Lol!

I just think it'd be nice if Destruction could benefit from some sort of horribly imbalanced game mechanic such as smithing/alchemy/enchanting does for melee/archery.

But honestly, I think it's fine. It could use a slight damage boost but I don't play on Master so I'm not too worried about it.

It's nice to see people realizing that it's not all about the strength of ONE specific skill. By level 50 you should be taking advantage of multiple skill trees. You had to have leveled SOMETHING else up in order to reach that point and there are only a few skills that don't work well together.

Yes. We do. Because if we don't invest in other defensive talents, it doesn't matter how hard we hit. We will die. I could max out my dual weilding skill and my damage will be insane. But if I'm naked, will I stand a chance against high level enemies.

The reason destruction magic output is lessened is because it is the only way to make combat challenging. Mages are built to be unhittable. If you are invisible and hitting for 900 damage per fireball, you would complain that destruction is op. Destruction damage has to be lessened somewhat to keep engagements from being walks in the park.

It has this, 0 cost reduction.



Like they are for the other damage types?

If damage is the only consideration, the answer is changing the Master-tier spells to something that is actually useful. Fire Storm is particularly gimped. If you can get Lightning Storm off it's unstoppable, but I'd rather have something I can cast quickly.

As far as I can see, there are two separate concepts that people are confusing as one.
Concept 1: Damage output
Concept 2: Survivability

What your opponent wants you to consider is that Concept 2 is not part of the issue. Doesn't matter how squishy the character is, we would simply expect that a highly leveled highly perked destruction caster would be similarly capable of damage output as someone who was highly leveled and highly perked in, say, one-handed.

In other words, if two unarmored characters with completely equal defense were to confront some mobs, would there be an observable difference between their offensive effectiveness. The "issue" being raised is that there is a substantial difference, all other things being equal.

He hasn't lost any credibility at all, who the hell would use destruction by itself when there are 18 skill sets at your disposal? The game has not been designed to allow you to use single skill tree builds and be efficient. It's been designed around the fact that you will use multiple trees together each complimenting each other in various different ways. If you were to use one-handed or any skill in fact, by itself, with no other skill set, it would be just as weak if not less so than destruction.

As it happens i currently have a level 45 pure mage, and there isn't anything in the game, even in groups that can really cause me much trouble anymore. 2 summoned Dremora Lords and dual casting thunderbolts (which is great fun i might add) will destroy anything you come across with relative ease, (which is to be expected using skill sets that are capped out) this is on adept which is the game benchmark when testing classes. Anything other than that difficulty cannot be used as reference, as it is deviating from how the game is meant to be. The game should be balanced on normal for all classes with the other difficulties only used for more or less of a challenge, based on personal preference. Having played a pure mage i'd say it's balanced quite reasonably. The post level 40 damage thing is a myth, as i can still crush everything even without my summons, it's just more fun with them.

Also regarding your scaling issue, there is no true level scaling in this game, i keep hearing it over and over again on these boards, but nobody seems to know what true level scaling is. Oblivion had it but this game does not. Every creature type in the game has a set level, set hp's, set damage etc etc. Variants do not count as level scaling. Otherwise that would mean every game in existence has it. If there is any scaling at all, it would be the guards but i would have to specifically check this.

Oh, and my summons, with the exception of twin Dremora Lords, don't do more damage than me per second. Not even close.

Well, the thread isn't "about" anything in particular; I was asking what issues people are having, and half the people so far are complaining that they die too quickly, which has nothing to do with damage output.

So, with damage output specifically, like I said, I play on Expert, and kill easy things in one or two hits, and most things in four to five hits. That seems fine to me. Is this the "underpowered" issue that people are talking about? Are people wanting to kill dragons in one hit? I keep seeing people say they spend "20 minutes" or "hours" spamming their spells, but I haven't seen that at all and I'm level 42 and have explored quite a bit. Is this actually happening, or does "hours" actually mean "4 or 5 hits"? Maybe other people are experiencing some sort of bug with the resists related to the last patch? I've never fought anything that hard; bosses and dragons take a little longer but I assume they're supposed to. I wouldn't want to one-shot bosses, that would be boring.

... And what high level warrior fights with just a sword? No shield, no armour? Need more than one single focus, unless you wish to deliberately play that way, for entertainment. Same with magic IMO, you use different kinds. Any character who just focusses on one, single mechanism has similar limitations.