The opinions of past TES gamers on games... : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 1:02 pm

Personally, even knowing that, I still enjoy playing it. There's no reason to not play an entire game because you know every bit of land you step on will be covered in ash in a few years. It's still an amazing game and the actual game will never disappear. Though I do get a little sad every time I pass by a cute and cuddly Scrib and think about their inevitable doom.

So I'm not the only person who thinks Scribs are cute and cuddly?

Haha.

Mind if I borrowed how you hid things? It's kind of annoying to use the "spoiler" thing.

I still like playing it, it's just it has this depressing echoing undertone. I always want to huddle up all of the NPCs and tell them to RLH to Solstheim or someplace else.
I've played the game, and I still do, I just play Oblivion more often.

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:20 am

This is fairly interesting, I was actually going to make a thread about it myself.

It is obvious that newer games were dumbed down with fewer skills and such. Spears, crossbows and throwing weapons that were in Morrowind were not included in OB. Many skills in Daggerfall not available in Morrowind etc. Players complain because they were used to these things. While some concerns are, IMO, valid, others were out of pure nostalgia.

I tried to play Daggerfall to have a better understanding of the TES series and to see what major changes were done in Morrowind, but I couldn't handle the controls so I decided to just watch videos of it and read articles. I could see why Daggerfall fans were disappointed in Morrowind. Random quests, many factions, holidays, events, reputations, etc. All gone.

Some complaints were justified in my opinion, like the interesting quest choices, the events (summoning days for daedric princes for example) and the combat system. While others, were removed for the better good. The landmass is much smaller, sure, but we have a much more detailed and interesting world worth exploring. Many skills removed because they were useless or poorly implemented.

It seems that whatever move Bethesda developers choose to make they are bound to disappoint a group of fans. Should they simply listen to their fans and all their requests and suggestions? certainly not. To this day I still see posts by people saying that Morrowind's combat system is far superior to that of Oblivion's, which in my opinion, is even worse than daggerfall's. On the other hand we have people praising Oblivion's combat system and admiring the way it was done. The devs simply cannot amuse everyone.

There is so much I want to say about this subject but it was all said here before me so ... lets just leave it to the developers.

Regarding that Nostalgia filter link. It was a good and interesting read but in some parts, the writer seems to suggest that every newer game is better than older ones in every way and whoever says otherwise is the wearing those nostalgia goggles.

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:14 pm

This is fairly interesting, I was actually going to make a thread about it myself.

It is obvious that newer games were dumbed down with fewer skills and such. Spears, crossbows and throwing weapons that were in Morrowind were not included in OB. Many skills in Daggerfall not available in Morrowind etc. Players complain because they were used to these things. While some concerns are, IMO, valid, others were out of pure nostalgia.

I tried to play Daggerfall to have a better understanding of the TES series and to see what major changes were done in Morrowind, but I couldn't handle the controls so I decided to just watch videos of it and read articles. I could see why Daggerfall fans were disappointed in Morrowind. Random quests, many factions, holidays, events, reputations, etc. All gone.

Some complaints were justified in my opinion, like the interesting quest choices, the events (summoning days for daedric princes for example) and the combat system. While others, were removed for the better good. The landmass is much smaller, sure, but we have a much more detailed and interesting world worth exploring. Many skills removed because they were useless or poorly implemented.

It seems that whatever move Bethesda developers choose to make they are bound to disappoint a group of fans. Should they simply listen to their fans and all their requests and suggestions? certainly not. To this day I still see posts by people saying that Morrowind's combat system is far superior to that of Oblivion's, which in my opinion, is even worse than daggerfall's. On the other hand we have people praising Oblivion's combat system and admiring the way it was done. The devs simply cannot amuse everyone.

There is so much I want to say about this subject but it was all said here before me so ... lets just leave it to the developers.

I agree entirely.

Regarding that Nostalgia filter link. It was a good and interesting read but in some parts, the writer seems to suggest that every newer game is better than older ones in every way and whoever says otherwise is the wearing those nostalgia goggles.

I didn't read all of it, just the basic description.

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:15 am

It's not surprising. However, I don't honestly feel I'll have a hard time leaving Cyrodiil. I think the thing for me is that I didn't particularly "fall in love" with Cyrodiil for very long. I liked it for a few months, but then I got bored. The issue for me is that Morrowind is far too old now for me to enjoy without staring at everything and being reminded that it's all
Infernal City Spoiler

Spoiler

exploded

It makes everything kinda pointless when you know everything's
Infernal City Spoiler

Spoiler

dead there

I like the games, and I agree that Morrowind has much more content than Oblivion, but I never really had a problem with Oblivion, could be because I started off with it and wasn't used to Morrowind, or just 'cause I'm one of those people that generally look past those sorts of things. I just sit back,mod, roleplay, and wait now. That's actually why I started modding, waiting for TES:V. I still like Oblivion and I'm not going to downplay it, it's a very good game.

Think of it this way:

You're living in a different time period. Not hard to do when everything's all swords and bows.

And in case you didn't realize, the world's going to end one day. But you still play video games as if it weren't.

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 1:37 pm

Think of it this way:

You're living in a different time period. Not hard to do when everything's all swords and bows.

And in case you didn't realize, the world's going to end one day. But you still play video games as if it weren't.

Great, I almost just typed a whole entire page about life/death, the meaning of things, etc. Lol, don't get me going on that topic.

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 1:01 am

I didn't know making spears playable took up gratuitous amounts of developer time.

Well when I said that I was talking about climbing and since they never gave the climbing skill an animation before so it would take much longer then spears to animate climbing then animating the spears would.

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:15 am

People will complain. Nostalgia Filters will exist. It will never change.

HeavyMetalArchmage will offer opinions that a wiser man would probably keep to himself. Human failings and all that.

Since I'm more "wise guy" than "wise man"...

"People on the forum would do well to consider what the Nostalgia Filter link says about Elder Scrolls fans"

Now I suppose it's time for the debate over whether to execute me or not because Morrowind isn't in my top 5 RPGs, and Daggerfall might not make my top 20...

Meanwhile, I'll go play my favorite, released in 1993...

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:56 am

I'm really hoping TES:V will be better in terms of roleplaying, skills, etc. They've shown a lot of promise with Fallout 3, and they said that system's been worked on so now the next game will have an even better system than Fallout 3. It really could be anything. After reading what people had to say over there and linking it back to here I realize when playing the new game I am going to have to make sure to see it for what it is and not for what I was expecting. The first game we've all played was our first introduction to the series. Many of us weren't expecting a huge open RPG world, or if we were it wasn't nearly what we expected. Now that new games are (and have been) coming out we start to think on terms of what we'd like to be in the new game, and what Bethesda's capable of, and then we are highly disappointed when it isn't a "revamp" of the last game, it's a new game entirely.

I think what happens is that people grow very familiar with games and attach themselves to that being the ideal form of the game, as with anything we highly enjoy we'll admit it has some flaws, but to those of us who like [insert game here] those flaws are worth it. Then Bethesda comes by and mixes everything up and people go: "Wait a minute, where'd "X" go and why is "Y" in the game now?!". And for them, the game is "wrecked" and disappointing because it isn't like they expected, and what made the game they started with the game they started with will not be and will never be what makes the next game what the next game is. It isn't that Bethesda is making the games more "main-streamed" it's that Bethesda is making games different each and every time. Daggerfall wasn't Arena 2.0, Morrowind wasn't Daggerfall 2.0, and Oblivion wasn't Morrowind 2.0.

And TES:V isn't gonna be Oblivion 2.0, it's going to feel entirely different. It's the way the game series has progressed since day 1 and yet people still argue and make the same complaints of the next game "being a let-down". These "the game is good" vs "the game is awful" arguments among fans have been going on for 9 years, if not longer. I don't know about you guys, but I'm going to not expect the next game to be anything like any of the others besides being an Open World RPG and taking place in Tamriel.

This was more or less why I posted a thread asking the forum whether or not they think Bethesda should http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1112756-rebuild-or-remodel/ when it comes to new installments of the series. Personally, I think they do their fans an injustice when they rebuild everything to make it new and different for the sake of making it new and different (a title that can 'stand on its own'). I think adding a new location and storyline is sufficient to make each new game feel different and act as a title that can stand on its own merit. To keep with the spirit of the series, however, I think they should simply 'remodel' the mechanics and textures (among other things), so that they look and work better, but remain true to the general feel of previous titles, as well as the series as a whole. With the 'build-from-the-ground-up' philosophy, I think they tend to attract a new generation of TES fanners, which I suppose is good for sales, but in the process they seem to alienate fans of previous titles with each new game.

Hope that made sense. It's 4am and my brain is a bit fuzzy.

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:33 am

"People on the forum would do well to consider what the Nostalgia Filter link says about Elder Scrolls fans"

Umm, no. Here's the problem with that stupid article. I still play the game, so it's clearly not nostalgia, I just prefer one game and find the other to be vastly inferior. It's got nothing to do with "nostalgia." That is quite frankly extremely silly.

Not to mention the article lost credibility here:

Fans of the Elder Scrolls video games who have played Daggerfall seem to prize it above newer installments, citing its larger world and deeper lore while ignoring its heavily pixelated graphics, the numerous bugs, Fatigue not regenerating, and repetitive locations full of blank space.

* Morrowind fans hate Oblivion, no matter what. Nevermind the fact that the rather stiff NPC AI in the latter was an improvement over the literally lifeless AI of the former, or that it had less Game Breaking Bugs, or that it was far easier to pick up and play than Morrowind's overly complex tutorially mess (Which is what Bethseda intended), having some more interesting characters, or that, while there was less dialogue in Oblivion, it was far easier to follow than what is potentially tens of thousands of Walls Of Text with barely any voice acting to keep it interesting, that the combat was even more monotonous than even Daggerfall and Arena's where you got to specify how your character attacked as opposed to simply clicking the mouse button over and over again until your finger cramped and your character finally made contact, or that the former had blocky, outdated graphics (in its time) coupled with lots of brown...But keep in mind that Morrowind is a game that you are not allowed to dislike unless you have the "Yahtzee" free pass.

Who wrote this, Seti or Saint Juib? :glare:

:rofl: That article is nothing but modern game fans whining at the people who complain about their favorite games being bashed. It's just one giant rant block.

# Fallout, having a drastically different third game, has this in spades, especially if one pays attention to the communities that cemented the Fallout community's image as as the best example of the Unpleasable Fanbase in video gaming. Oh, sure, the 2d graphics, turn-based combat, rubber faces, and 640x480 resolution was just better than the high-end, genuinely freaky graphics of today.

* Not wishing to give acknowledgement to the unpleasable fanbase, but at least some of the genuine freakiness came out of the characters faces staring at us from the deepest pits of the Uncanny Valley, if you know what I mean.

:banghead:

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 1:03 pm

"People on the forum would do well to consider what the Nostalgia Filter link says about Elder Scrolls fans"

Yeah, it's a perfect example of what can go wrong with that type of article. Opinions shouldn't be considered facts.

Fans of the Elder Scrolls video games who have played Daggerfall seem to prize it above newer installments, citing its larger world and deeper lore while ignoring its heavily pixelated graphics Bashing an old game for having old graphics is just wrong, the numerous bugs Indeed, it is buggy. And it did freeze on me twice... in a month, Fatigue not regenerating Having to rest once every few hours is so gamebreaking. (Not really, no.) , and repetitive locations full of blank space. Fast travel FTW!

The Morrowind section was just one big rant by a fan of Oblivion that was angry his game got bashed so many times.

But keep in mind that Morrowind is a game that you are not allowed to dislike unless you have the "Yahtzee" free pass.

Funny that Yahtzee actually liked Morrowind.

But in the end, when expecting the new game to be just a version 2.0 of his predecessor, disappointment and complains are sure to happen.
For example, if you look at SupCom FA vs Supcom 2 threads, you'll notice they are nearly identical to our Morrowind vs Oblivion threads.

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:18 am

It seems as if some people made it a personal goal to never praise Oblivion. Even when Oblivion has something just like Morrowind's(even more similar than the soundtrack), people still only say the liked Morrowind's way of handling it, either as if they made that thing I mentioned a goal or aren't aware of Oblivion's existence. Does that classify as other? I'm really just curious. What is that?

I have noticed this trend too. Some people seem to view Morrowind as a gift from the gods and Oblivion a filthy heap of bile not worth the case it came in. There are no nuances, it's bordering strongly on fanboyism and fanhate. And this thread only strengthen my view that people tend to bash the latest game in a series. I am not at all surprised if TES V will be bashed to the moon and back by the same guys who loved Oblivion (maybe including me for all I know).

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 9:13 am

I have noticed this trend too. Some people seem to view Morrowind as a gift from the gods and Oblivion a filthy heap of bile not worth the case it came in. There are no nuances, it's bordering strongly on fanboyism and fanhate. And this thread only strengthen my view that people tend to bash the latest game in a series. I am not at all surprised if TES V will be bashed to the moon and back by the same guys who loved Oblivion (maybe including me for all I know).

I've been guilty of bashing Oblivion before. I think what happens is you get new players who love Oblivion for all the reasons everyone else has loved TES, but are fixated on the graphical and gameplay side of things. In response, fans of the older games go overboard and label Oblivion as dumbed down and immature.

I'm a Morrowind fan, but I do see how it was dumbed down from Daggerfall. However, the ways in which it were improved outnumber those issues. Daggerfall seemed to have 1 model for every weapon type, just different color schemes. The large map of generated terrain was replaced by a detailed one that was drawn by hand.

Oblivion, on the other hand, further reduced the number of skills, and weapon types, and armors, and factions. There was less difference between races, in dress, in location, in voice. There was less dialogue. We got horses, and improved stealth and combat.

In short, Oblivion was a continuation of the changes made from Daggerfall to Morrowind, and I feel they should have gone in the opposite direction. While I loved Morrowind, I thought the gameplay was fine. What I wanted changed was the size, the scope, the number of skills. I wanted to ride a horse, sail a boat, climb a castle wall. If TES V is going to be a revolutionary game, the developers need to realize that they've got to go back to older games and increase the scope. My suggestion would be to increase the landmass by 100% and increase the content by 20%. Increase the number of factions, skills, weapons, armors, and ways which those things can be combined.

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 11:22 am

I consider myself a TES-fan more than a Morrowind-fan or Oblivion-fan. I see Oblivion as my favourite TES-game, even though I at the same time view Morrowind as the best TES-game.

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 9:58 am

This was more or less why I posted a thread asking the forum whether or not they think Bethesda should http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1112756-rebuild-or-remodel/ when it comes to new installments of the series. Personally, I think they do their fans an injustice when they rebuild everything to make it new and different for the sake of making it new and different (a title that can 'stand on its own'). I think adding a new location and storyline is sufficient to make each new game feel different and act as a title that can stand on its own merit. To keep with the spirit of the series, however, I think they should simply 'remodel' the mechanics and textures (among other things), so that they look and work better, but remain true to the general feel of previous titles, as well as the series as a whole. With the 'build-from-the-ground-up' philosophy, I think they tend to attract a new generation of TES fanners, which I suppose is good for sales, but in the process they seem to alienate fans of previous titles with each new game.

Hope that made sense. It's 4am and my brain is a bit fuzzy.

We really, again, don't have to worry about them re-doing everything. The Fallout 3 engine is an improved Oblivion engine, and the new engine they've been working on is a revamp of the Fallout 3 engine. :shrug:

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 6:32 am

I consider myself a TES-fan more than a Morrowind-fan or Oblivion-fan.

I completely agree :goodjob:

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 11:00 am

I consider myself a TES-fan more than a Morrowind-fan or Oblivion-fan. I see Oblivion as my favourite TES-game, even though I at the same time view Morrowind as the best TES-game.

Exactly. :thumbsup:

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:16 am

Personally i think it's pathetic how some people HAVE to love one and hate the other. Actually it's mostly the morrowind fans that cause so much debate, i just think there both great games, better than most out there imo and find it ridiculous how much oblivion has to be slated.

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:12 am

I'm not nostalgic on my opinion. Morrowind's superior. It is the current prime of the TES series, sorry Oblivion fans, but it is. There's no denying it. I even started with Oblivion.

Morrowind Pros

-Dialogue
-Quests
-Factions
-Lore
-Alien Feeling
-Setting

Morrowind Cons

-Graphics
-Combat

Oblivion Pros

-Graphics
-Combat

Oblivion Cons

-Dialogue
-Quests
-Factions
-Lore
-Generic Feeling
-Setting

At least in my opinion. Oblivion has more players. Morrowind has more fans. Oblivion is made for casual roleplaying gamers. Morrowind was made for the loyal Bethesdians. I won't deny that Oblivion over-all was a fair roleplaying game. I will disagree it's superior to any of its predeccesors.

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 12:25 pm

You know when reading those quotes from the first post I can really see what Todd Howard was saying when he said looking at reviews from the older games they can almost be directly translated to the newer games. Like if you blocked out a few words you wouldn't even be able to tell which Elder Scrolls game they were talking about.

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:08 pm

I have noticed this trend too.

I've noticed that Oblivion fans try to make up trends that the people who don't like it follow, because they know they they're in the wrong. Seriously, I have NEVER said Oblivion has nothing good about it. I have even said that Oblivion DOES have good things about it. I have even listed them. I have even listed Morrowind's problems (at which point I somehow turned into a Morrowind basher...) yet you people are still adamant that I'm a blind Morrowind fan boy who refuses to believe Morrowind isn't perfect, and thinks Oblivion is the worst game in existence.

Most who dislike Oblivion here are the same. Theres the occasional idiot, but that works both ways. No one has ever questioned me on the folowing:

Stealth System
Music timing (the actual music is just a preference, I think Morrowind's was better)
View Distance
AI (occasionally, it does come up, in which case I back up Oblivion)
Modding Capabilities
Working Arena
etc.

If you questioned more on the things that we do like, you would hear more praise to Oblivion. Instead, all I get are things I don't like, such as:

Voice Acting
Fast Travel
Lore
etc.

When you only mention the things that people don't like, you are going to get more negative comments. I don't sit here, on some debate about fast travel and voice acting and decide to randomly blurt out "Oblivion has AI!". That would be completely ridiculous and irrelevant.

It also works the other way around. I have never ever saw any of the usual people in debates (Seti, Saint Jiub, whatever) decide to say that Morrowind has some good aspect. They are always debating about Morrowind's "rubbish miss system". I don't hear anyone complaining about that?

Oh, and please check out the "What do you like about Oblivion?" threads. There's PLENTY of things we've all listed.

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:56 pm

You know when reading those quotes from the first post I can really see what Todd Howard was saying when he said looking at reviews from the older games they can almost be directly translated to the newer games. Like if you blocked out a few words you wouldn't even be able to tell which Elder Scrolls game they were talking about.

I think that maybe true. And I'm guessing what he's assuming and trying to say is that "Haterz gona hate."

But maybe he should ask himself WHY the reviews are always saying the same thing. As a developer, if I heard that one game had been "dumbed down" such as some Daggerfall fans said of Morrowind, I could assume they were not happy with some of the otherwise necessary changes. Now if you hear the same thing about the next game, Oblivion, which we all have, you can no longer assume it's just coincidence.

Obviously, reversing the trend would lead to others being unhappy, but I think striking a balance is far better than heading full steam in one direction. From Arena to Daggerall to Morrowind to Oblivion we have seen a trade off of quantity and substance for quality and style. Now, obviously when you start with a game that is larger than a real life country, that it inevitable. But at what point do you stop?

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:00 am

I think that maybe true. And I'm guessing what he's assuming and trying to say is that "Haterz gona hate."

But maybe he should ask himself WHY the reviews are always saying the same thing. As a developer, if I heard that one game had been "dumbed down" such as some Daggerfall fans said of Morrowind, I could assume they were not happy with some of the otherwise necessary changes. Now if you hear the same thing about the next game, Oblivion, which we all have, you can no longer assume it's just coincidence.

Obviously, reversing the trend would lead to others being unhappy, but I think striking a balance is far better than heading full steam in one direction. From Arena to Daggerall to Morrowind to Oblivion we have seen a trade off of quantity and substance for quality and style. Now, obviously when you start with a game that is larger than a real life country, that it inevitable. But at what point do you stop?

No, he wasn't talking about bad reviews (though that's sort of what I was talking about), he was talking about how the games ambition has always seemed to have stayed the same. The good things that reviewers talk about seem to stay relatively the same from game to game.

Also, I don't think he really is that worried about the small percentage that played the game and didn't like it. Each game in the series was more successful than it's predecessor, why would he in his right mind even begin to think he was going in the wrong direction? (not to say that I myself wouldn't like it to go in another direction, but then again who wouldn't want a game made just for them?)

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 11:34 am

I have been playing RPG's since 1990. I've played everything from D&D Gold Box games, to Ultima, to Wizadry, etc... Yes, a lot of lost life. But my point is this. The Elder Scrolls isn't even my favorite series, and so with me there is no fan-boyism, or excessive nostalgia for Daggerfall, Morrowind or Oblivion. In terms of TES, I just prefer Morrowind the most. I really think it's a superior game to Arena (which I've barely played admittedly) Daggerfall (which I've put a ton of hours into), and Oblivion (which I played through once and now play HEAVILY modded).

I think if a poll of people were taken of those who had played all four games, Morrowind would come out on top by a large margin. If nostalgia were the prime driver behind popularity then I should love Daggerfall above all else since I played that game in 1996 when it came out, and put a hundred+ hrs into it. Yet, I still prefer Morrowind.

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 6:53 pm

I consider myself a TES-fan more than a Morrowind-fan or Oblivion-fan.

I'm not the only one. yes!!!:disco:

But on topic, it is always like this, but its funny how in Morrowind's time, Daggerfall fan's were the Morrowind Fan's and Morrowind fans were like the Oblivion-fans.

Basically it goes like this:

2002:
"new" Morrowind players: omg omg omg omg Daggerfall still rules!

"old" DF players: lol lol lol lol lol lol lol Morrowind ruined TES!

2006:

"new" Oblivion players: omg omg omg omg Morrowind still rules!

"old" Morrowind players: lol lol lol lol lol lol Oblivion ruined TES!

Sad thing is that this situation happens to all games, like Pokemon. it's sad. sad sad sad...

» Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:50 pm

Why is it so hard for Oblivion fans to understand "their" game isn't as beloved as Morrowind? Furthermore, who cares? Enjoy whatever game you want to enjoy!