Question: Where do Goblins come from?

It's pretty clear that Goblins have a rudimentary culture, with a "language" and "religion" all their own. They eat, they drink (sometimes to excess!), and presumably breed (there are males and females, after all). That being said, how much effort has really been put into their "lore", so to speak? Do we know where they come from, or why they act the way they do? Do we know any of their deities, or if they could truly be considered a "society" (if not a civilization)?

It is assumed that Goblins are amongst the creatures under the stalwart protection of Malacath, along with Ogres, Trolls, and Orcs, right? Do they somehow owe their existence to Malacath in some fashion? Perhaps they even worship him, in their own way...

Something to consider - disregard all you know about TES lore, especially in regards to its creation myths. Observe the Goblin's pointed ears, and occasional proficiency with Magicka. Is it a possibility that Goblins are a distant, aboriginal ancestor to the Meric races? Or, perhaps a more contemporary, degenerative offshoot (like the "good 'ol boys" of Point Lookout in Fallout 3, for example).

I understand that this discussion doesn't have too much to do with solid, concrete lore...however, there really isn't much when it comes to Tamriel's "lesser" denizens.

I am unaware of the oragins in goblis, exept that in the earlier days they were considered relatives of orcs, well orcs were considered relatives of THEM which implies they're older than orcs.

Except that's obsolete imperial propaganda, and the orcs and gobbos are no way related.

All that we really seem to know is that they have some basic intelligence, and they're trained by the altmer to be used as cannon fodder and pretty much slaves or something.

Goblins, along with Ogres and possibly Trolls are apparently creatures of Malacath's design. They are not daedra, but rather corrupted humanoids which existed on Nirn and fell under his influence. It was once believed that Orcs were lowly creatures such as these but their true origin as Aldmer has recently been coming to light, and they've won increased acceptance in the Empire, especially as front line shock troops and expert smiths.

Also note that while they probably didn't originally create the goblins, Altmer commonly train them as supplemental troops in war and as mercenaries. This angle is explored in Tribunal during a long questline in which two goblin war chiefs and their altmer trainers had to be assassinated.

I am aware but that they were considered to be close to goblins after their creation still does imply that goblins exsisted first, that all I was asying

My theory? The Altmer train goblins, and just so happen to practice eugenics (or did, anyway. From the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Altmer: "The first edition of 'A Pocket Guide to the Empire and its environs' (aka PGE), published in 2E 864, contains a passage from an earlier date (1E 2820) suggesting that the Altmer practice eugenic infanticide, putting to death nine in ten of their newborns for being of impure bloodline").

So... I believe goblins, being pointy-eared and good with magic as you said, are simply Altmer of lesser intelligence and appearance who weren't worthy of breeding with other, superior Altmer, and instead of being put to death, were roped into a life of slavery, possibly under their own family members.

Some managed to escape, banded together, formed communities, and took to living in caves.

Which could possibly extend to the Rieklings! Perhaps both theories proposed in Bloodmoon are correct: they're both snow goblins AND the descendants of the Falmer, just not the pretty Falmer.

Mind you, this is all speculation, but you never know.

EDIT: another thing to note, is that both Altmer and goblins (at least until Tribunal it seems) have yellow/gold skin. Heck, even the Tribunal goblins have a yellowish tinge.

Yes, this is the kind of conjecture I was looking forward to! After all, when little information is provided, all one can do is offer conjecture.

I think the Goblin/Meric link is definitely worth investigating further.

Glad you liked my insane ramblings.

Well I dislike using Oblivion as a resource for such conversation, but here goes. What of the level of "souls" each creature possesses? If there is such a tight Goblin/Meric link why are their souls trappable outside of Black Soul Gems? Or am I missing something key here?

The fact that Vivec and Almalexia's souls can be captured.

Game mechanics.

Goblins in Oblivion can be soul trapped without black soul gems, so are not considered sapient or humanoid, and yet appear very much to be severely devolved elves of some sort in appearance. This may hearken back to the Tolkien goblins, who were a lesser type of urch, bred by torturing and corrupting elves with dark magics over generations. I've seen them listed as Malacath's creatures though. It's possible that he developed the race of goblins back in the Mythic Dawn era before the borders between Mundus and Oblivion were firmly in place.

Goblin souls can be trapped in normal soul gems, but I wouldn't really take the game mechanics regarding soul trapping as a very good indicator of lore, though. As only "humanoids", which in game mechanics terms, means the ten playable races, as well as some unplayable ones like Dremora and Sheogorath, require black soul gems to capture. Yet Dremora could always be captured using normal soul gems in past games. So either Oblivion's soul trapping system is not an entirely accurate representation of how souls actually work in the Elder Scrolls universe, or the past games' is not accurate. Either way, it reminds us that gameplay mechanics don't always reflect lore. We must also consider that in Morrowind, Almalexia and Vivec could both be soul trapped, as could Sxith House creatures and corprus beasts. Even though the Tribunal were originally Chimer before they used the power of the power of the Heart to attain godhood, and the Sixth House monsters are Sixth House priests whose bodies have been transformed by corprus, whereas the corprus beasts are victims of the disease who have become grossly deformed and lost their reason. Did the Tribunal's godhood also stop their souls from being protected? Does corprus disease also have this effect when it transforms the victim too much? Or is this, once again, only gameplay mechanics? If the former is true, than it says nothing about goblins, and if the latter is true, than it may show us that the way soul trapping works is not proof that goblins are not related to elves, as it means that whatever caused them to become the way they are now could also have made their souls able to be trapped in normal soul gems.

But I could certainly believe that goblins have some connection to Malacath, since it seems to be suggested that at least ogres and trolls are somehow connected to him (At the very least, he seems to make it clear in his quest in Oblivion that no one owns ogres but HIM.) and while there isn't really any indication that goblins are related to trolls or ogres, I wouldn't put it past them to be. I doubt Bethesda is going to elaborate on their origins too much, though, they seem to mostly just exist to offer cannon fodder for players to kill, and are used because they're a generic fantasy concept fans of the genre are already familiar with so Bethesda doesn't have to explain anything more about them to know what they are, all we can do is speculate based on what we've seen so far, but maybe I'll be proven wrong some day and Bethesda will decide to give us lots of interesting lore on goblins, and then we'll be discussion all the questions that didn't get answered, or complain that what we learned isn't consistent with our favorite fan theories.

They came from a portal in Hammerfall (probably the same 'portal' Malacath fell out of).

Whom did Boethiah poop out this time?

Nah, it's his dingle-berries.

Note, not his original post.


Perhaps each of the following had an infliction against their very souls? I mean the listed beings for the most part have a "being" altering condition. Regardless of whether people consider each of the subjects' "infliction" to be good or bad, either way the being themselves could've been changed all the way down to their core. Perhaps the soul in the TES universe can be twisted and remade into something that's no longer human.

Haha, I LOVE the idea that goblins (and Reiklings) are the ultra-degenerated offspring of the ugly elves, bred into goblins through nasty Altmer eugenics! That is such a brilliant angle, and I hope it is true, despite the complete lack of cannon evidence . It would be such a cool thing to explore if/when Bethesda does the Isle.

How is that a brilliant angle? Its just Tolkien applied to TES...

Uh, except that the Elves in Tolkien didn't do it to themselves, and then get so embarrassed about it they had to cover it up. The Tolkien elves don't practice Nazi-style eugenics, while simultaneously breeding a lesser race of retard elves as slaves and cannon fodder. In Tolkein it was the "mean ol' baddies" who do it all. That is boooring. I love the fact that the Altmer are such awful beings.

It's utterly impossible to completely remove any medieval fantasy involving human sized elves completely from Tolkien. While TES is about the most original series I've seen as far as avoiding common tropes, the whole "goblins from corrupted elves" thing seems about as likely as not here. If for no other reason, we're told that Rieklings might possibly be the last descendants of Falmer, and Rieklings are very similar to Goblins.

After all, at the end of the day Tamriel began its life as an idea for a Dungeons and Dragons realm. D&D borrowed heavily from Tolkien in a lot of ways, and probably wouldn't exist at all in the form that it does if not for those influences. Tamriel manages to be a very different place from Middle Earth and other High Fantasy settings, where beast races such as Orcs and where Dark Elves aren't necessarily evil, and where good and evil themselves are not as cut and dry as they may seem, and where the Dwarves were about as different from mead hall dwelling warriors as possible - but that doesn't mean it can't contain any direct influences at all.

Orcs! A beast race!? How dare you!
They are Elvish God-Poo, through and through

but yeah, Dwemer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any other (Dwarves) ever

And yet the last living Dwemer needs a skateboard to shimmy himself across his room. Which is a cave. Full of people that make lepers look radiant.

I agree though, Dwemer are awesome. Just a shame we don't get more contact with them.

Call them the wandering ehlnofey of the next kalpa. Mauloch will raise his scimitar against the Old Ehlnofey, when the time is right! Patience, His children, patience. :shrug: I've had worse ideas.

Maybe they where brought to Tamriel by some ancient akavir lead expedition, maybe as slaves, i mean the Akavir obviously know more about Tamriel then there supposed to, they dont live there, they must have explored it before written history.