[k a t e]

I searched, couldn't find any other threads about this type of game, which I've really gotten into lately.

Anyways, this series of games is unique. It plays on a world map (or, in Europa Universalis: Rome and Crusader Kings, in Europe and the Middle East), but in real-time. Days, months, years go by.

For the layman who wanders into this thread without know what it is about and is curious, here is a brief description of each game. There are four "major" series of the games. They are:

• Crusader Kings: Ranging from 1066 to 1453, you play as a dynasty. This is unique, because you're NOT a nation. You're a family, and if your family falls out of power, you lose, game over. A great deal of the game is managing your family members and such, to ensure that your dynasty is as wide-spread and powerful and entrenched as possible. As an example, in my game, when I took control of the Independent Duchy of Munster, I took the O'Brien dynasty from rulers of three provinces to first rulers of a united Ireland, Wales, and England (I'm leaving Scotland mostly unconquered for now, for reasons that will be explained later in the thread). My dynasty has branches in Croatia, and a spin-off branch also sits on the throne of Scotland, and in the independent Crusader kingdom of Syria (which I established then willingly split off. They, like most of the real Crusader kingdoms, collapsed).
  
  One interesting thing that sets it apart from the other games is that you're not directly in control of most of your land (unless you're small, or playing as a County or Duchy). Your ruler can only manage so much land (depending on his stats), and you have to appoint vassals to rule the land in your name. These vassals have their own personalities, agendas, and everything, and may serve you faithfully, or betray you.
  
  The sequel is due out sometime next year, I believe.
  
  
• Europa Universalis: Definitely one of the more well-known series of the Paradox style, in EU3 you rule a nation between 1399 (with expansions, 1453 without) and 1820. The whole world (mostly) is available to conquer. One of the more impressive aspects of EU3, at least (never played the first two) is that you can take control of ANY nation between these times, at ANY time. You can start your campaign July 4, 1776, and lead the United States in the Revolutionary War (or American War of Independence, as you foreigners may know it). Or you can start on day one in the Americas and try and prevent the fall of the Aztecs to European colonizers (which is, accurately, pretty hard).
  
  There's also a Roman-era timeframe spin-off, but I haven't played that one.
  
  
• Victoria: In Victoria, you lead a nation from 1830 to 1930 (noticing a pattern here?), through the era of World War I, the American Civil War, the Industrial Revolution, the rise of Communism and Fascism, and more. I've heard it described as "the only game in which you can take the Republic of Texas and turn it into a brutal Communist dictatorship that spans the entirety of the Americas". The game has a ridiculously complicated and detailed political and economic simulator (seriously. There are MULTIPLE types of wood). If you don't rule your nation well (or have a VERY powerful and loyal military), you will find revolutionaries or nationalists beating down your door and forcibly changing your government or declaring independence.
  
  
• Hearts of Iron:Easily the "shortest sighted" of the Paradox games, Hearts of Iron and it's two sequels cover the era before WWII and up to the 1950s-60s. I can't really go into depth here, since it's the only one of these major series I haven't actually played. Still, you should be able to expect nuclear weapons, tanks, etc.

Anyways, one of the really appealing features of these games to me is the fact that (with some previous games, the functionality has not been directly built into more recent games) you can take the save game from, say, Crusader Kings, and export it into Europa Universalis. So, with the proper converters, many of which are now fan-made ones for newer games, you can take a country from 1066 all the way up to the beginning of the Cold War. It takes a very long time, of course, but it's still one of the most interesting features I've ever seen.

The games are also very moddable. EU3 and Victoria II are based solely on text files and TGAs. So for adding a new country, it's as easy as poking in and copying a few text files, then creating a flag.

Anyone else play them? They're rather complex and have a pretty steep learning curve, but once you learn to play one, the others are pretty similar and easy to learn.

[Tracey Duncan]

I've kinda been wanting to get Crusader Kings. That style of "family" dynasties seems more realistic than the utter randomness of Medieval II.

[Vickey Martinez]

The games are also very moddable. EU3 and Victoria II are based solely on text files and TGAs. So for adding a new country, it's as easy as poking in and copying a few text files, then creating a flag.

Anyone else play them? They're rather complex and have a pretty steep learning curve, but once you learn to play one, the others are pretty similar and easy to learn.

So...wait, are they strictly text based? Or do they have graphics? All of those games I've heard mentioned here on the forums a time or two before, and every time I think they sound reaaaallly interesting(but also extremely time consuming), but I'm not sure I could handle a text based game of that magnitude.

[KRistina Karlsson]

I've kinda been wanting to get Crusader Kings. That style of "family" dynasties seems more realistic than the utter randomness of Medieval II.

It is. Rather than anybody being available, you have a series of laws that you can enact by which you can pretty much control the inheritance. While you can't DIRECTLY choose "I want THIS guy to be my heir, and ONLY him" like in Rome: Total War, you can choose to say "alright, the eldest male child of the current king inherits" or "the most powerful child inherits" or "all children get a share of my realm". There's also Elective Law, where the most powerful vassal is elected.

So...wait, are they strictly text based? Or do they have graphics? All of those games I've heard mentioned here on the forums a time or two before, and every time I think they sound reaaaallly interesting(but also extremely time consuming), but I'm not sure I could handle a text based game of that magnitude.

They have graphics. The basic files defining countries and such are text based, but the more recent games have 3d maps and units.

[Chelsea Head]

It is. Rather than anybody being available, you have a series of laws that you can enact by which you can pretty much control the inheritance. While you can't DIRECTLY choose "I want THIS guy to be my heir, and ONLY him" like in Rome: Total War, you can choose to say "alright, the eldest male child of the current king inherits" or "the most powerful child inherits" or "all children get a share of my realm". There's also Elective Law, where the most powerful vassal is elected

What are battles like?

[Stacyia]

My Swiss Confederacy crushed the Genoans, the Papal States, the Milanese, Venetians and Corsica but got myself curb stomped by the Hapsburgs. I was not a happy man.

The next game I tried was as Portugal - I colonised most of the American coast line and took Grenada off the Moors/Spanish. Colonisation is a tad boring though.

The one thing I haven't quite figured out is how to keep my traders in markets - they keep being booted out and I'm having to spend my hard earned tax dollars in sending merchants almost every turn. GRRRR. Makes me want to just invade them and be done with it. Let war support war!

[ILy- Forver]

What are battles like?

There's a few classes of units, a few "phases" of battle, but the battles are randomly simulated. Two armies enter a province, they lose troops depending on the phases and the specialty of those units in said phase, and the stats of the commanders. It usually comes down to "one side has more troops, that side wins". The real challenge is managing the overall war- for example, sending 90,000 units over to Egypt, they'll lose troops pretty quickly, because the attrition of the desert wears them out. Troops only aren't affected by attrition in friendly territory. So it doesn't matter if you have 10,000 units more than your enemy- if they strategically retreat, you'll eventually lose enough troops.

It's not a battle simulator like the Total War series. It's pretty much the Campaign Map of that game, except with a very, very intricate and detailed political system, and such.

[Karl harris]

You can also entice an enemy into piling too many units into one province - their troops will begin to starve. I once managed to starve off a stack of 6 infantry and horse with just 4 infantry units before I rolled in and finished them off with an additional 2 units of cavalry and one of cannon.

The combat is pretty much like Civ, only each unit can be grouped under one leader so you can have several army corps comprised of, say, 3 cavalry, 2 men-at-arms for scouting, 5 infantry, 4 cavalry for your main battle force and 3 cannons protected by 2 infantry as your 'siege train'.

[Vicky Keeler]

You can also entice an enemy into piling too many units into one province - their troops will begin to starve. I once managed to starve off a stack of 6 infantry and horse with just 4 infantry units before I rolled in and finished them off with an additional 2 units of cavalry and one of cannon.

The combat is pretty much like Civ, only each unit can be grouped under one leader so you can have several army corps comprised of, say, 3 cavalry, 2 men-at-arms for scouting, 5 infantry, 4 cavalry for your main battle force and 3 cannons protected by 2 infantry as your 'siege train'.

Sounds to me like you're playing EU3, which is all a great and true thing.

Few tips:
1. Yes colonization is boring. That's why I always pull a Cortes and find an existing new world state and integrate it. Especially because the Aztecs and Incas have access to gold.
2. With your Swiss Confederacy game, if you're on defense, have your army scorch the land and then fall back. It'll hurt you in the long run, but the massive attrition of a scorched province will drive their war exhaustion through the roof. Once it gets high enough, revolts will start breaking out back in their homeland and they'll be forced to commit a significant force to protect it. That's when you can strike, or force a White Peace or favorable peace deal. Also, blockade, blockade, blockade. Blockades are another factor for a massive war exhaustion. In one of my games, I had mega-France (which always seems to happen) as Britain. I blockaded their entire coastline. Their war exhaustion went soaring immediately. Of course, they were powerful enough it didn't make any difference, but still, it would have worked were they not a superpower.
3. For traders, I believe there's a way to set it so you automatically replace traders- check the Center's screen, there should be a "Priority" bar. Set that. Also, research Trade and take Trade-oriented National Ideas and advisors. Your compete chance is what controls that.

[Marilú]

God, scorched earth is terrible for the populace though - I feel like I'm actually reaching down and ripping babies from their mother's briast and throwing them into the fire...I don't think I'm cut out to be a politician.

Yeah, I'll check that trade thing. I've always neglected trade tech for the most part - kinda silly if you're playing as Portugal!



Thanks for the tips, SkyShadow. Have you ever made it to India?

[Tai Scott]

I've Impulsed Crusader Kings Complete. I hope it's cool...So, do you choose a family in a certain region. Like, say, can you play the Angevins (Plantagenet) before Henry Curtmantle became King of the English? Or do you play really minor nobility?

[NEGRO]

Ok, so are these games browser based? Or could I walk into a Gamestop(or some type of video game store) and find them on the shelf, ready to install and play on my computer? What are the specs for them if they are something I have to install? Any other information about the games you might feel kind enough to share? Which of them is your favorite?

sorry for all these questions, but the more I read the more interested I become!

[Farrah Lee]

Ok, so are these games browser based? Or could I walk into a Gamestop(or some type of video game store) and find them on the shelf, ready to install and play on my computer? What are the specs for them if they are something I have to install? Any other information about the games you might feel kind enough to share? Which of them is your favorite?

sorry for all these questions, but the more I read the more interested I become!

They are ordinary games you find in a game shop. The older (and IMO, better) installments require little or no effort from a modern computer, them having simple but elegant 2D graphics. The more recent games (EU3, HoI3, EU:Rome) have more "advanced" 3D engines and require a fairly effective computer to function properly.

[Haley Cooper]

I've Impulsed Crusader Kings Complete. I hope it's cool...So, do you choose a family in a certain region. Like, say, can you play the Angevins (Plantagenet) before Henry Curtmantle became King of the English? Or do you play really minor nobility?

As long as they exist on the map, you can play them. I've seen most of the "big names".

With a little searching, I'm sure you'll be able to find them somewhere.

And you can start off as any family. Some of the more interesting games I've seen, people start off as counts and maneuver themselves through intrigue, war, and other methods into rulership of a nation. But you can play a Count, Duke, or King, right from the start. Except, you can only play Christian families.

[Crystal Birch]

I got the game. I'm confused and poor, my patriarch's wife hates him, and William of Normandy is being a douchecasket.

But I made friends with Berwick. That's good, right?

[Damned_Queen]

I got the game. I'm confused and poor, my patriarch's wife hates him, and William of Normandy is being a douchecasket.

But I made friends with Berwick. That's good, right?

Who you playing as? I'm going to guess England?

A great, great deal of playing CK is learning to manage your vassals. In my Ireland game, I've pretty much only got in handled because I'm making boatloads of gold. I hold Desummu, Essix, Oxford, and York as my personal demesne. They have massive armies between them, which I have to use to put down... rebellious vassals.

It's hard at first. If you get a bad ruler, you will pay for it. I have tons of gold locked away for when my ruler dies, because then I have to let the gold flow out to my vassals to ensure their loyalty to the new king.

Also, pay close attention to prestige. Prestige is used to impose claims on neighboring rulers. High prestige also gives you bonuses to vassal loyalty. Some tips: if you're winning a war, try not to have the level of demands exceed the warscore, or go negative. You lose prestige if that's the case.

Pay attention to reputation. As you take more territory from anybody and add it to your own demesne, your reputation (aka "badboy") goes up. Your vassals will start taking a hit to loyalty. If your reputation exceeds a certain level (it will tell you you are Dishonorable Scum), VERY VERY bad things happen. Giving out land to vassals and such will lower your reputation.

So this creates a difficult conundrum- there's a vassal who's rebelled, and you take it back. What people usually do is force-vassalize while recognizing them as the ruler of the area they own. This lowers your reputation (you're relinquishing claims), but you still own the land.

Tips for war: Don't target your enemy king directly. Instead, target the vassals near you. I was having a real hard time beating England as Ireland, because I was trying to occupy the King's demense directly. My tip: get a claim on their land, attack with all your might. Once you have their single province occupied, force them to vassalize (there is a beta patch on the official CK forums that you may need for this, it's official). You seize a part of your enemy's army and take it for yourself. If you only target your enemy's demesne (kings usually have pretty big and scattered demesnes), they'll pick you off with attrition and vassal armies (you can't occupy territories of a nation you're not technically at war with, even though they're vassals of an enemy king. Example: being at war with the King of England doesn't allow you to occupy territory belonging to the Duke of Oxford, his vassal. The King of England, however, CAN mobilize that army personally and use it against you. Thus, by targeting the Duke of Oxford, you're still at war with England, but you can directly seize away a part of his own army and use it against him, ESPECIALLY if he doesn't try to stop your occupying force with that army himself).

Eventually, you can whittle down a much more powerful enemy, just by turning his vassals to your side.

[brenden casey]

Who you playing as? I'm going to guess England?

A great, great deal of playing CK is learning to manage your vassals. In my Ireland game, I've pretty much only got in handled because I'm making boatloads of gold. I hold Desummu, Essix, Oxford, and York as my personal demesne. They have massive armies between them, which I have to use to put down... rebellious vassals.

It's hard at first. If you get a bad ruler, you will pay for it. I have tons of gold locked away for when my ruler dies, because then I have to let the gold flow out to my vassals to ensure their loyalty to the new king.

Also, pay close attention to prestige. Prestige is used to impose claims on neighboring rulers. High prestige also gives you bonuses to vassal loyalty. Some tips: if you're winning a war, try not to have the level of demands exceed the warscore, or go negative. You lose prestige if that's the case.

Pay attention to reputation. As you take more territory from anybody and add it to your own demesne, your reputation (aka "badboy") goes up. Your vassals will start taking a hit to loyalty. If your reputation exceeds a certain level (it will tell you you are Dishonorable Scum), VERY VERY bad things happen. Giving out land to vassals and such will lower your reputation.

So this creates a difficult conundrum- there's a vassal who's rebelled, and you take it back. What people usually do is force-vassalize while recognizing them as the ruler of the area they own. This lowers your reputation (you're relinquishing claims), but you still own the land.

Tips for war: Don't target your enemy king directly. Instead, target the vassals near you. I was having a real hard time beating England as Ireland, because I was trying to occupy the King's demense directly. My tip: get a claim on their land, attack with all your might. Once you have their single province occupied, force them to vassalize (there is a beta patch on the official CK forums that you may need for this, it's official). You seize a part of your enemy's army and take it for yourself. If you only target your enemy's demesne (kings usually have pretty big and scattered demesnes), they'll pick you off with attrition and vassal armies (you can't occupy territories of a nation you're not technically at war with, even though they're vassals of an enemy king. Example: being at war with the King of England doesn't allow you to occupy territory belonging to the Duke of Oxford, his vassal. The King of England, however, CAN mobilize that army personally and use it against you. Thus, by targeting the Duke of Oxford, you're still at war with England, but you can directly seize away a part of his own army and use it against him, ESPECIALLY if he doesn't try to stop your occupying force with that army himself).

Eventually, you can whittle down a much more powerful enemy, just by turning his vassals to your side.

Actually I was playing as Northumberland, but that didn't go so well (what with the massive confusion that happened when I went to help Berwick against Malcolm of Scotland. I won...I think. Not really sure. There were so many notices popping up at once). So then I decided to play as the Duchy of Brittany. And that's lots of fun. Not too big, I have some vassals, and no liege lord. Unfortunately, I can't really expand my territory because I can't attack anyone without bringing down the wrath of the Kingdom of France.

I just wanted Thouars...But that brings Aquitaine into the battle, which in turn brings all the French vassals into it.

Is there a way to expand your territory without having to fight wars, other than usurping the title (that only seems to work for duchies and kingdoms, though)? I mean, I suppose you can just assassinate all the heirs to a county, after making a claim to it, and that would net you the county?

[Stacey Mason]

Actually I was playing as Northumberland, but that didn't go so well (what with the massive confusion that happened when I went to help Berwick against Malcolm of Scotland. I won...I think. Not really sure. There were so many notices popping up at once). So then I decided to play as the Duchy of Brittany. And that's lots of fun. Not too big, I have some vassals, and no liege lord. Unfortunately, I can't really expand my territory because I can't attack anyone without bringing down the wrath of the Kingdom of France.

I just wanted Thouars...But that brings Aquitaine into the battle, which in turn brings all the French vassals into it.

Is there a way to expand your territory without having to fight wars, other than usurping the title (that only seems to work for duchies and kingdoms, though)? I mean, I suppose you can just assassinate all the heirs to a county, after making a claim to it, and that would net you the county?

Somewhat. Take a look at the succession order of each county. It takes time, and luck, but if you can find a count with, say, an unwed daughter, marry your heir to her, they have children, and then the other heirs conveniently fall out of windows, while choking, on fire, and inspecting their organs, you can maneuver your heir into a position of power.

The best thing is that you can do the same with ANY level. If your Duke finds out that the King of France has the above circumstances, and you pull it off, you inherit the ENTIRE kingdom. It takes some skill, some awesome Spymasters and rulers, but it CAN be done. I've never done it- the closest I've ever come to that is getting a client branch in charge of Scotland.

And France can be beaten. Keep an eye out for vassals declaring independence. If you can beat the French armies to them, you can integrate them into your territory. One thing to beware on that is that the French king will have claims on you, and that he will not hesitate to use his massive armies against you.

Otherwise, there IS another way to a Kingdom. After all, the name of the game IS "Crusader Kings". The Holy Land is waiting... But beware- I've established client-family Syrias and Jerusalems, and they've never lasted long. Main reason? They're surrounded by enemies who do NOT need claims to attack you (religious enemies) and who gain automatic claims on any territory they take (but the vice-versa is also true). Also, the Mongols tend to come from the East, and though in my game, they were actually curb-stomped before they ever made a threat to Europe, and they're... overpowered at times.

Also, usurping the titles only gives you a direct claim to that crown. You still have to take it by force.

[Prohibited]

This will not be easy...

[Melly Angelic]

I've always enjoyed strategy games, but I've never played ones like these. I'll have to check them out

[Jesus Duran]

Hell yeah! I finally found my niche as Bohemia. Started out as a duchy under Germany, but decided to split off and become my own kingdom. Funnily, me and Germany are really good pals. I was pretty pissed, though, when he called my troops up (this was when Bohemia was still a duchy), and I ended up 542 gold in debt.

I was not pleased.

But I pulled it together, raised taxes for a brief while, made a good marriage that brought in more money, and now I'm doing great. Seized some territory from the Duchy of Nytrya, got an alliance with the Byzantine Empire (probably a bad idea), and I also have an alliance with some odd Russian principality. They keep wanting me to fight Kiev, and I'm like "no thanks. I could probably take'em, but the money loss from mobilizing ain't worth it."

Crusader Kings is an awesomely fun game, once you get the hang of it, and find your good realm to play.

[Nymph]

Like Caesar III? I'm a bit confused.

[Trey Johnson]

Like Caesar III? I'm a bit confused.

Never played that. I kinda look at Crusader Kings as Medieval Total War (the first one), only without the battle simulation and much more politicking (there are battles, of course. but you don't command each individual unit. You just move your regiment to the province/county/duchy that you wanna attack, provided you've declared war. And you can't claim the place until you have an actual claim on the title.). It certainly makes for really interesting, cut-throat gaming.

Update: The glorious King of Bohemia, after fighting a brutal war with Poland (I was trying to claim the title to the Duchy of Silesia. Kicked Poland's ass, but couldn't get the title ) has received the homage and fealty of the Duchy of Austria, and it's subordinates. Of course, this now puts Bohemia at odds with Germany, but I'm trying to stay out of it, only stepping in if Austrian/Bohemian territory is directly threatened by German oppressors.

I'm also rich as hell, and my king shacked up with the hot elder daughter of the Dutch duke, which got me even more money from her dowry. Honestly, they could have called this game http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeadlyDecadentCourt.

[Andrew Lang]

Becoming an electorate of the Holy Roman Empire was the worst decision of my life.
ZE GERMANS ARE ATTACKING!

I ended up having to raise a 200 ducat loan at 8% interest and crushed the Lorraine/Anhalt/Wuttermberg alliance, finally settling for white peace. I burned Wuttermberg to the ground. Building a trade empire is hard.

[Lance Vannortwick]

I'm looking into getting these games, they look very interesting, but could someone link the Crusader Kings to Europa Universalis to Victoria 2 to Hearts of Iron 3 converters? I'd love to lead a country through hundreds of years of history.