The point of the Dark Brotherhood?

Post » Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:21 pm

I think you have something there Manu, but equally I feel you have missed the sense of the wiki link that Crimson posted - it looks fairly cannon to me.

Although the observations about Lorkhan are from forum members it may be that they are in accord with 'the hidden agenda' that the devs call loads of stuff they have not put into the games yet ...


I've just read it. It seems to contradict some what's known of the orginal Morag tong, at least in Morrowind. In my opinion, the truth is probably somewhere in-between.

Here's my thoughts on how it might have turned out :

the Morag tong orignated in Morrowind, then spread out. Probably always being more widespread and accepted on it's home ground - in my opinion probably somewhen around 1E400 during when the nords got kicked out of Morrowind. Assasination of nord leaders was probably fair game in the war and could win the Morag Tong a lot of brownie points in Morrowind. Out of Morrowinf it probably remained an obscure sect.

With Versidue-Shae's death and the general hunt for the Morag Tong, the Morrowind branch probably went unscathed (with the Tribunal in charge since 1E700, odds are the Morrowind branch was quite firmly under Vivec's influence). Note that Morowind being quite a rather closed province, it could have been unnoticed. Or maybe they simply slipped out of sight while retaining most of their influence there while being almost destroyed everywhere else.

Then some remnant out of Morrowind evolved on it's own as the Dark Brotherhood.
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Queen
 
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Post » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:48 pm

Thanks for the answers. Interesting stuff. :) But another thing I don't really get is why does Sithis want only assassins, not mages, necromancers, sorcerers, or warriors, or most importantly; priests. The other Daedric princes and Gods have followers from all different backgrounds, while the only ones that seem to worship Sithis, Mephala, and the Night Mother are assassins?


I'm guessing you are speaking figuratively, because Sithis doesn't want anything. The followers chose to believe he only wants assassins because they were assassins. Mephala's pretty much all about assassination and secret murder, s/he kind of has a monopoly on it in the Daedric realms (with the exception of Boethiah. Dunmer culture states that Boethiah knew it, but Mephala was the one who taught it, in a nutshell).

We had a number of threads about a statue somewheres in a DB cave that appears to be lacking a heart ... so proweler and others speculated maybe the DB in OB/cyrodiil are actually whorshipping the god of men ... whose heart was torn out and thrown into the sea ... maybes causing a volcano to rise from the sea-bed = Red Mountain and Vvardenfell? A certain God who is said to be a sub-gradient of Sithis?

Also it seems strange to think that The Morag Tong came before the Db if as some here seem to think it belonged to Vekh?

Hows about Ithe Morag Tong belonged to Mephala originally ... then Vekh and the Tribunal usurped the place of the Princes/good Daedra and took control so Mephala - feeling a bit miffed then split of the DB and operated it mostly in other Provinces out of Vekh's reach?


First of all the Crimson Scars were a renegade group of the brotherhood, so they might not even follow the same rules. That statue is supposedly Sithis, though it looks like Lorkhan, so I'm guessing that Lorkhan is meant to look like Sithis, as he is an embodiment of him. Since Sithis didn't have a shape, they got the next best dude.

Yeah, the Tong came before the DB. The Tong started worshipping Mephala, but after the Tribunal came to power and the Potentate was murdered they went back to Morrowind and pledged themselves to Vivec. They didn't always follow him, they actually were around before him, but now they do (or did).

Yeah, that last bit's what I've been saying all along.

yes - interesting that the Dark Brotherhood should have to emerge in secrecy whereas the Morag Tong was able to emerge with its original name into the open ... someting missing there?


The Tong operate exclusively in Morrowind, where they are legalized by Vivec, who they have recently pledged themselves to. The Brotherhood replaced the Tong everywhere but Morrowind, but since assassination and murder is illegal everywhere but Morrowind the Brotherhood is thus illegal. They were once part of the same group, but after the Potentate assassination they split due to money, religion, Vehk, etc.

I've just read it. It seems to contradict some what's known of the orginal Morag tong, at least in Morrowind. In my opinion, the truth is probably somewhere in-between.

Quite, I noticed several discrepencies as well.

Here's my thoughts on how it might have turned out :

the Morag tong orignated in Morrowind, then spread out. Probably always being more widespread and accepted on it's home ground - in my opinion probably somewhen around 1E400 during when the nords got kicked out of Morrowind. Assasination of nord leaders was probably fair game in the war and could win the Morag Tong a lot of brownie points in Morrowind. Out of Morrowinf it probably remained an obscure sect.

With Versidue-Shae's death and the general hunt for the Morag Tong, the Morrowind branch probably went unscathed (with the Tribunal in charge since 1E700, odds are the Morrowind branch was quite firmly under Vivec's influence). Note that Morowind being quite a rather closed province, it could have been unnoticed. Or maybe they simply slipped out of sight while retaining most of their influence there while being almost destroyed everywhere else.

Then some remnant out of Morrowind evolved on it's own as the Dark Brotherhood.


Quite possible, though sources speak of a schism resulting almost directly from the Night Mother (Mephala). So just add in that Mephala led the DB parts away from the Tong and that theory seems good.
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Rudi Carter
 
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Post » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:41 am

Quite possible, though sources speak of a schism resulting almost directly from the Night Mother (Mephala). So just add in that Mephala led the DB parts away from the Tong and that theory seems good.

It would seem that different branches of the Dark Brotherhood seem to worship different night mothers, a number of them mortal. Perhaps Mephala pulls the strings behind the Cyrodiilic version, but the branches in Morrowind and Hammerfell had human night mothers, seemingly having no further connection to Mephala.

Edit: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Sacred_Witness seems to suggest that the belief in Mephala worship was around in Hammerfell, I suspect they moved away from Mephala worship somewhere along the line.
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Eric Hayes
 
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Post » Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:47 am

It would seem that different branches of the Dark Brotherhood seem to worship different night mothers, a number of them mortal. Perhaps Mephala pulls the strings behind the Cyrodiilic version, but the branches in Morrowind and Hammerfell had human night mothers, seemingly having no further connection to Mephala.

Edit: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Sacred_Witness seems to suggest that the belief in Mephala worship was around in Hammerfell, I suspect they moved away from Mephala worship somewhere along the line.


The mortal ones are, for the most part, titles. Some of them know that they aren't the real Night Mother, some of them might even be acting on Mephala's orders, but a small portion of them are probably heretics. They declare themselves the real Night Mother reborn and start a new sect, I imagine the Brotherhood isn't as centralized as we think. It's my guess that each province's DB is independent, though I would guess they collaborate to some degree.

Ah, that text is an interesting one, and a decent theory, to say the least. It is a piece of the puzzle, a biased account, and conflicts with the others as much as they do with it. In the end we can't say for certain, but a meshing of these texts might be best.

So, that text tells us that one of the Brotherhoods, in Hammerfell, was created by or at least led by this ex-Thieve's Guild member. Plausible enough. But we also have text to prove that the Brotherhood split off from the Tong, led by the Night Mother, because of financial and religious reasons. However, at the same time, some texts claim that the Night Mother was a title of the Tong as well.

My favorite source is this one, from http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/brothers_of_darkness.shtml:

The Dark Brotherhood sprang from a religious order, the Morag Tong, during the Second Era. The Morag Tong were worshippers of the Daedra spirit Mephala, who encouraged them to commit ritual murders. In their early years, they were as disorganized as only obscure cultists could be-there was no one to lead the band, and as a group they dared not murder anybody of any importance. This changed with the rise of the Night Mother.

All leaders of the Morag Tong, and then afterward the Dark Brotherhood, have been called the Night Mother. Whether the same woman (if it is even a woman) has commanded the Dark Brotherhood since the Second Era is unknown. What is believed is that the original Night Mother developed an important doctrine of the Morag Tong-the belief that, while Mephala does grow stronger with every murder committed in her name, certain murders were better than others. Murders that came from hate pleased Mephala more than murders committed because of greed. Murders of great men and women pleased Mephala more than murders of relative unknowns.

So, it is said that the title of Night Mother was one of a mortal, something to be passed down from person to person. However, whether these individuals were in some way controlled or in contact with Mephala is unclear. What is certain is that they could not hope to get contracts from secret prayers and rituals all the way to the mortal Night Mother, unless these rituals used some form of alchemical magic. What is also certain is that the ghost we see in Oblivion (while Oblivion may not be the best source) was no mere mortal. Thus my theory of her being both a title and Mephala stands.

We can approximate the time this belief was adopted with the first known murder committed by the Morag Tong. In the year 324 of the Second Era, the Potentate Versidue-Shaie was murdered in his palace in what is today the Elsweyr kingdom of Senchal. In a brash move, the Night Mother announced the identity of the murderers by painting "MORAG TONG" on the walls in the Potentate's own blood.

Previous to that, the Morag Tong existed in relative peace, more or less like a witches' coven-occasionally persecuted but usually ignored. In remarkable synchronicity at a time when Tamriel the Arena was a fractured land, the Morag Tong was outlawed throughout the continent. Every sovereign gave the cult's elimination his highest priority. Nothing more was officially heard of them for a hundred years.

This is when they retreated the Morrowind and appealed to Vivec. Thus when strife would arise and the schism would occur, the Night Mother leader taking her loyalist assassins and forming the Brotherhood, who wanted both money and religious freedom (No Vehk).

It is more difficult to date the Era when the Morag Tong re-emerged as the Dark Brotherhood, especially as other guilds of assassins have sporadically appeared throughout the history of Tamriel. The first mention of the Dark Brotherhood that I have found is from the journals of the Blood Queen Arlimahera of Hegathe. She spoke of slaying her enemies by her own hand, or if necessary "with the help of the Night Mother and her Dark Brotherhood, the secret arsenal my family has employed since my grandfather's time." Arlimahera wrote this in 2E412, so one can surmise that the Dark Brotherhood had been in existence since at least 360 if her grandfather had truly made use of them.

Only about thirty years since the Potentate assassination. The dates match up well, no?


So, it is my personal belief that Mephala is the driving religious force behind both organizations, though she may not control them directly. A "Night Mother" exists, at least in name, in each group or sect, the equivelant of the Tong's Grandmaster. The Listener is a Cyrodiil only thing, as their Night Mother is literally Mephala, controlling them from her statue. Notice that Daggerfall had no Listener rank ;)

So you have to think about each sect individually, especially concerning the Night Mother.
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Andrea P
 
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Post » Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:30 am

But I don't think all of the sects are loyal to or controlled by Mephala. The ones in Hammerfell supposedly followed a "Night Mother" who saw it as a profit organization, and the Morrowind group was seemingly closer to Mehrunes Dagon than Mephala. My personal take on it is that there were idealogical splits within the Dark Brotherhood that were not recorded, different people having different ideas on how the Dark Brotherhood should be. So while some groups may be Mephala's puppets (curiously, those most associated with her are NOT in conflict with the Morag Tong).
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Benji
 
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Post » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:15 am

But I don't think all of the sects are loyal to or controlled by Mephala. The ones in Hammerfell supposedly followed a "Night Mother" who saw it as a profit organization, and the Morrowind group was seemingly closer to Mehrunes Dagon than Mephala. My personal take on it is that there were idealogical splits within the Dark Brotherhood that were not recorded, different people having different ideas on how the Dark Brotherhood should be. So while some groups may be Mephala's puppets (curiously, those most associated with her are NOT in conflict with the Morag Tong).


True enough, but it doesn't really conflict with what I said. My main point was that within the Dark Brotherhood there are several sects, in the same way a language will change if isolated. So yes, I see what you mean, and I think only the Cyrodiil group is directly controlled by Mephala (Oblivion's fault).

I don't know where you are getting the Dagon bit, I never finished Morrowind. If you have a source I would be appreciative; not that I don't believe you, but I'd like to anolyze it. The Brotherhood and Tong are two of my favorite parts of lore, you see :D
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Kelsey Hall
 
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Post » Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:01 am

In the Morag Tong questline, the worshippers of Mehrunes Dagon are allied with the Dark Brotherhood, giving them refuge in their shrines. The Dark Brotherhood and their cultist allies have in their possession the Threads of the Webspinner, which apparently the Morag Tong wishes to retrieve in the name of Mephala. At least one of the Morrowind Dark Brotherhood, Hrordis, worships Mehrunes Dagon.

What is also interesting is how Mephala http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Mephala%27s_Quest.
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Kayla Keizer
 
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Post » Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:24 pm

True enough, but it doesn't really conflict with what I said. My main point was that within the Dark Brotherhood there are several sects, in the same way a language will change if isolated. So yes, I see what you mean, and I think only the Cyrodiil group is directly controlled by Mephala (Oblivion's fault).

I don't know where you are getting the Dagon bit, I never finished Morrowind. If you have a source I would be appreciative; not that I don't believe you, but I'd like to anolyze it. The Brotherhood and Tong are two of my favorite parts of lore, you see :D


I seem to remember in Battlespire and later in Morrowind and its expansions there was the idea (remember that Battlespire was conquered by the followers of Mehrunes) that Daedroth hunt mortals - basically for sport. but that would not really be the province of Dagon ...

There have also been instances of the followers/creatures of one Daedric Prince defecting to other Princes in Oblivion - quite astonishing when you consider that the Realms of Oblivion are said to be extensions of their Princes ...

That would seen to support the idea that human worshippers could change allegience from one Prince to another - however when a human goes solo he is not only interesting, he also has no daedric support and so is fair game. Furhter suggesting that Daedoth do not war on each other without the leave of their Prince.

The interpretation of sub-gradient as embodiment is interesting but I am not sure it is accurate as Lorkhan was said to be a son of Sithis and his opposite as much as anything ... more than one version there.

Somewhere there is a fascinating link to a roleplay that MK put up one Christmas about what seemed to be family and tribal relations of Nord Gods and their conflicts with the forebears of the mer ... which might suggest that there is a lot more to Man/Mer becoming Gods than has previously been seen.

The nature and history of Lorkhan may well have layers that we have yet to see ... and indeed if he is a 'child' rather than a sub-gradient of Sithis as I mentioned earlier then it may be that sect of the DB mentioned earlier were on to something. Note that Lorkhan appears to pre-date the Daeric Princes and the aedra also.
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Alycia Leann grace
 
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Post » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:41 pm

I personally think Sithis is an aspect of Lorkhan, not unlike Shor, the Nords' take on Lorkhan. Or any of the other aspects of the Aedra in the various pantheons.
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Skivs
 
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Post » Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:11 am

I personally think Sithis is an aspect of Lorkhan, not unlike Shor, the Nords' take on Lorkhan. Or any of the other aspects of the Aedra in the various pantheons.

But Shor is a being. Sithis is incomprehensible in it's entirety because it is a thing that is not, right? Shor is a thing that is. Therefore the two couldn't possibly be one another.
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Zosia Cetnar
 
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Post » Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:20 am

But Shor is a being. Sithis is incomprehensible in it's entirety because it is a thing that is not, right? Shor is a thing that is. Therefore the two couldn't possibly be one another.

They're different, but they both appear to be aspects of Lorkhan.
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Amber Ably
 
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Post » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:53 am

Urgh. CP, you got to do the whole explanation from start to finish.

But Shor is a being. Sithis is incomprehensible in it's entirety because it is a thing that is not, right? Shor is a thing that is. Therefore the two couldn't possibly be one another.


In all myths the world starts with two forces, they go by many names, Anu and Padomay, Bird and Serpent, Light and Dark, Sithis and Anuiel, ect. You can assign just about any concept to these two as long as they're diametrically opposed. The interplay of these two forces is the Aurbis, the universe were in.
So yes, you're right that Sithis isn't a thing but a fundamental force.However the Sithis of the Darkbrotherhood that CP is talking about doesn't appear to be this Sithis.

For the same reason there are many accounts of the same event in the http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml, there are different ideas of the same set of gods. For example Shor, Sep, Shezarr, Lorkhan, they're all parts of the same elephant.

The Dark Brotherhood is a split of from the Morag Tong, founded Mephala. http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/chaos.shtml notes that Under her guidance they merged the Daedric concept of action with that of Sithis[Padomay]. Actively causing death, which is murder.

This can be connected to Shor | Sep | Shezarr | Lorkhan by noting that in all myths he brought death to the Aurbis, with the creation of Mundus people were able to die. Though it's easier when looking at the http://xgm.ru/pics/article/1251_1.jpg in the Vile lair. It shows a grim reaper caged in bones. Which is how Lorkhan | was trapped in the world as punishment.

With Lorkhan | being the Dread Father Sithis it allows Mephala to be the Night mother, as the god mortality and the god of secrets give Birth to Murder, the Darkbrotherhood.

All in all, it would appear that the Darkbrotherhood bastarized the original teachings of Mephala when it split of and became a tad isolated.

Or for people who'd like to pretend the Darkbrotherhood preceeded the Morag Tong, you might just say that that Dark Brotherhood is a dadies girl, and the Morag Tong momma's boy.
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Kira! :)))
 
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Post » Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:11 am

Urgh. CP, you got to do the whole explanation from start to finish.



In all myths the world starts with two forces, they go by many names, Anu and Padomay, Bird and Serpent, Light and Dark, Sithis and Anuiel, ect. You can assign just about any concept to these two as long as they're diametrically opposed. The interplay of these two forces is the Aurbis, the universe were in.
So yes, you're right that Sithis isn't a thing but a fundamental force.However the Sithis of the Darkbrotherhood that CP is talking about doesn't appear to be this Sithis.

For the same reason there are many accounts of the same event in the http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml, there are different ideas of the same set of gods. For example Shor, Sep, Shezarr, Lorkhan, they're all parts of the same elephant.

The Dark Brotherhood is a split of from the Morag Tong, founded Mephala. http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/chaos.shtml notes that Under her guidance they merged the Daedric concept of action with that of Sithis[Padomay]. Actively causing death, which is murder.

This can be connected to Shor | Sep | Shezarr | Lorkhan by noting that in all myths he brought death to the Aurbis, with the creation of Mundus people were able to die. Though it's easier when looking at the http://xgm.ru/pics/article/1251_1.jpg in the Vile lair. It shows a grim reaper caged in bones. Which is how Lorkhan | was trapped in the world as punishment.

With Lorkhan | being the Dread Father Sithis it allows Mephala to be the Night mother, as the god mortality and the god of secrets give Birth to Murder, the Darkbrotherhood.

All in all, it would appear that the Darkbrotherhood bastarized the original teachings of Mephala when it split of and became a tad isolated.

Or for people who'd like to pretend the Darkbrotherhood preceeded the Morag Tong, you might just say that that Dark Brotherhood is a dadies girl, and the Morag Tong momma's boy.


sterling stuff. cough cough - dadies girl/momma's boy :bigsmile:

I must admit ever since the love letter appeared I have been wondering if the whole shebang is not going to circle ... and thus eventually cut out any actual beginning. Dragonbreaks have also contributed to that speculation.

Another possibility is that the whole thing is leading to a release of Lorkhan from bondage ... which could get titanic

The third string (that MK's choice of roleplay ehanced) returns to beginnings and discovering that all the gods and Daedra started out as mortal beings

All themes that like all Lore in ES seem to have some stuff in support but cannot be the whole story even if they turn out to be so
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Emily Jeffs
 
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Post » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:21 pm

Urgh. CP, you got to do the whole explanation from start to finish.



In all myths the world starts with two forces, they go by many names, Anu and Padomay, Bird and Serpent, Light and Dark, Sithis and Anuiel, ect. You can assign just about any concept to these two as long as they're diametrically opposed. The interplay of these two forces is the Aurbis, the universe were in.
So yes, you're right that Sithis isn't a thing but a fundamental force.However the Sithis of the Darkbrotherhood that CP is talking about doesn't appear to be this Sithis.

For the same reason there are many accounts of the same event in the http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml, there are different ideas of the same set of gods. For example Shor, Sep, Shezarr, Lorkhan, they're all parts of the same elephant.

The Dark Brotherhood is a split of from the Morag Tong, founded Mephala. http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/chaos.shtml notes that Under her guidance they merged the Daedric concept of action with that of Sithis[Padomay]. Actively causing death, which is murder.

This can be connected to Shor | Sep | Shezarr | Lorkhan by noting that in all myths he brought death to the Aurbis, with the creation of Mundus people were able to die. Though it's easier when looking at the http://xgm.ru/pics/article/1251_1.jpg in the Vile lair. It shows a grim reaper caged in bones. Which is how Lorkhan | was trapped in the world as punishment.

With Lorkhan | being the Dread Father Sithis it allows Mephala to be the Night mother, as the god mortality and the god of secrets give Birth to Murder, the Darkbrotherhood.

All in all, it would appear that the Darkbrotherhood bastarized the original teachings of Mephala when it split of and became a tad isolated.

Or for people who'd like to pretend the Darkbrotherhood preceeded the Morag Tong, you might just say that that Dark Brotherhood is a dadies girl, and the Morag Tong momma's boy.


Interesting. So Sithis is not the real Padomay. But are there cults that worship it? And are the Daedra manifistations of this chaos? If so how come some Daedra lords are enemies?
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quinnnn
 
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Post » Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:49 am

Nice summation proweler, I'd assumed the Sithis of the DB was the Void of the beginning place. Still, they murder for similar reasons Dibella's crew screw, for them, its the hight of divine experience, mortal too. Leave it to a house mod, to expose more of the brotherhood than the entire quest line.
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Dan Stevens
 
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Post » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:48 pm

Interesting. So Sithis is not the real Padomay. But are there cults that worship it? And are the Daedra manifistations of this chaos? If so how come some Daedra lords are enemies?

I'm going to go out on a limb again and say that I personally think Padomay and Anu are mortal-envisioned constructs, aspects of Lorkhan and Akatosh, respectively. I've personally never heard of a cult that worships Padomay directly. As for the Daedra, they are usually considered to be "Padomaic", that is, aligned with change rather than stasis. I will go out on another limb and say it looks to me like it was a mortal label to link their myths with the immortal beings who inhabit Oblivion, in the mortal drive to explain everything.
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Joe Alvarado
 
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Post » Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:08 am

Urgh. CP, you got to do the whole explanation from start to finish.

*snip*

Or for people who'd like to pretend the Darkbrotherhood preceeded the Morag Tong, you might just say that that Dark Brotherhood is a dadies girl, and the Morag Tong momma's boy.


Now, here's a question. Why does the Brotherhood revere the number 5 so much when 3 (and to a lesser extent, 4) is such a magic number in the Aurbis?
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Dewayne Quattlebaum
 
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Post » Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:07 am

Interesting. So Sithis is not the real Padomay. But are there cults that worship it?


No, outside of the Darkbrotherhood Sithis is Padomay, a fundamental force. You can just about substitute any two diametrically opposed concepts for Anu and Padomay, Light and Dark, Bird and Serpent, Chaos and Order, Magicka and Void, Good and Evil. None of them are entirely accurate descriptions.

The actual object of worship of the Dark Brotherhood is Lorkhan, albeit understandably miss named.

And are the Daedra manifistations of this chaos? If so how come some Daedra lords are enemies?


They're turbulent spirits.

Nice summation proweler, I'd assumed the Sithis of the DB was the Void of the beginning place. Still, they murder for similar reasons Dibella's crew screw, for them, its the hight of divine experience, mortal too. Leave it to a house mod, to expose more of the brotherhood than the entire quest line.


I wouldn't know. Perhaps it was there all along and needed some kicking in, perhaps some tried to fix it. Last time I spoke Emil (way back on Blood and Shadows) he didn't know the details of the plugin.

I'm going to go out on a limb again and say that I personally think Padomay and Anu are mortal-envisioned constructs, aspects of Lorkhan and Akatosh, respectively. I've personally never heard of a cult that worships Padomay directly. As for the Daedra, they are usually considered to be "Padomaic", that is, aligned with change rather than stasis. I will go out on another limb and say it looks to me like it was a mortal label to link their myths with the immortal beings who inhabit Oblivion, in the mortal drive to explain everything.


They're at the start of every religion really and not supposed to do much but interplay and make the world. You'll have to do allot of work to make that story stick.

Now, here's a question. Why does the Brotherhood revere the number 5 so much when 3 (and to a lesser extent, 4) is such a magic number in the Aurbis?


Five fingers on the blackhand of Mephala, makes for a nice pentagram too, it's the 3th prime, 5 books in the Thora, appropriate number to praise Allah as proper hasjhasin, Discordianism big on it, the 16th president stands on a 5ct nickel.

Seriously, check wikipedia because I've got no clue. :P
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tegan fiamengo
 
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Post » Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:12 am

No, outside of the Darkbrotherhood Sithis is Padomay, a fundamental force. You can just about substitute any two diametrically opposed concepts for Anu and Padomay, Light and Dark, Bird and Serpent, Chaos and Order, Magicka and Void, Good and Evil. None of them are entirely accurate descriptions.

The actual object of worship of the Dark Brotherhood is Lorkhan, albeit understandably miss named.



... snip ...


Perhaps someone in the Crimson Scars was knowingly worshipping Lorkhan at the begining of that branch - and maybe he changed the name so that Sithis worshipers would not target them as heretics or whatever. Thus that statue was intended to be Lorkhan and only the inner circle knew it.

That could take it back to the battle between the Aerdra/Et Ada/mer and Lorkhan's followers ... so maybe they didny start out as DB ...

Hell if it was being done with the Mythic Dawn in one way then other forces were likely using similar techniques - hiding in the midst of enemies
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Cayal
 
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Post » Fri Aug 20, 2010 5:29 am

He maped a primordial event he and every other [censored] saw, but don't recall. This guy recieved a signal from the super-duper memory dump of the oversoul, so he built a damn statue of that memory. He called it Sithis, because he was a vainglorious son-of-a-[censored], and naturaly Sithis would contact his chosen, such as he. This statue has nothing to do with the brotherhood or vampires, those details are distractions. He didn't know what the hell he was really sculpting, we can all agree.

It is my belief any mortal is capable of "seeing" or "contacting" such memories, without considerable efforts, therefore there is nothing fascinating about "Mr. C. Scar's" statue. As for the craftsmanship, I'm pretty sure people have built Devil's Tower out of mashed potatoes. Its been a while since I last saw Close Encounters.
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Cody Banks
 
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Post » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:02 am

I believe the brotherhood has nothing to do with Dagon, but Mephala is quite (very) possible. Here is my theory on the brotherhood:

The Tong killed the potentate, in which the blood letters were formed. They made their way to Morrowind, but there some of them broke off and joined up with the ex-thieves guild member(s). That was very simple. No reason in repeating what others have said...

The Dark Brotherhood operates as a religious cult/business depending on how you look at it. The different officials in the Dark Brotherhood are more or less religious and profit-demanding. Really just depends on which one you look at.

Another interesting thing: http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/fire_darkness.shtml

Anyhow, the Brotherhood is obviously some kind of break off from the Tong. They aren't as religious, so I assume the founder was more money-based. Theories are theories, we all have our own opinion. Now, the point of the Dark Brotherhood is to serve Sithis (who according to my opinion is not lorkan), and to make money. They are a mercenary-assassin organization that is a bit religious (the night-mother ritual, the other stuff, etc.). Basically, get a straight assassin club, throw some Mephala and evil darkness and void in and boom- the Dark Brotherhood.

Lore things in Oblivion really just svcked. Mannimarco was a wuss, the Dark Brotherhood wasn't as cool as they normally are. Everyone takes the DB all evil and such (which they kind of are), but life comes with death and vice versa. You want to use game mechanics or lore examples, many of the people the Dark Brotherhood killed were evil people who deserved to die- and more people would have been harmed had not the person been assassinated.

You have other references- Arquen eating entrails - that is junk. She was crazy. The Dark Brotherhood (in my opinion) isn't as much of a death cult as everyone thinks.

I'm tired. More detail could have been put in, but not today...
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Aman Bhattal
 
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Post » Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:14 am

He maped a primordial event he and every other [censored] saw, but don't recall. This guy recieved a signal from the super-duper memory dump of the oversoul, so he built a damn statue of that memory. He called it Sithis, because he was a vainglorious son-of-a-[censored], and naturaly Sithis would contact his chosen, such as he. This statue has nothing to do with the brotherhood or vampires, those details are distractions. He didn't know what the hell he was really sculpting, we can all agree.

It is my belief any mortal is capable of "seeing" or "contacting" such memories, without considerable efforts, therefore there is nothing fascinating about "Mr. C. Scar's" statue. As for the craftsmanship, I'm pretty sure people have built Devil's Tower out of mashed potatoes. Its been a while since I last saw Close Encounters.


lol - a reference or direct quote on that would be useful jackfrost - unless you are just continuing the pure speculation that I started?

@woolymammoth45 thanks for the linky - am familiar with that text. It is easy to forget the significance of the first paragraph once you get into the meat of it:
This note and others like it are rare. Both the Morag Tong and its hated child, the Dark Brotherhood, are scrupulous about leaving no evidence behind - their members know that to divulge secrets of their orders is a lethal infraction. This obviously makes the job of the historian seeking to trace their histories very difficult.

The Morag Tong, according to most scholars, had been a facet of the culture of Morrowind almost since its beginning.


Basically these scholars are guessing. they may be educated guesses, but guesses they are.

Also Cyrodiil is not Resdayne/now Morrowind. The significance of that is not merely politics. There are two different races in charge and they actually have different perspectives on Sithis and Lorkhan. Basically the mer have always seen Lorkhan as an enemy - and the mer see Lorkhan as a God of Men - as did/do men.

Ref the War between the Aedra (from home the mer claim descent) vs Lorkhan and his followers who were men. Monomyth and stuff.

I am not certain of the relationship between the D Princes and Lorkhan (though it appears that Lorkhan had a bit of both Padomay and Sithis) however I have heard it said that Mephala and Lorkhan are linked ... so in the absence of Lorkhan it would not seem unlikely that Mephala would step in.

Given that that Lorkhan is described as a sub-gradient of Sithis ...

And in the Ancient War there were references to those that spread the doctrine of Sithis ... made disparagingly by Aedra/mer. That might suggest that the origins of the Morag Tong/DB are in fact older than the currently known records show directly.

Please note well the maybes :)
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Nicole M
 
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Post » Fri Aug 20, 2010 5:50 am

And in the Ancient War there were references to those that spread the doctrine of Sithis ... made disparagingly by Aedra/mer. That might suggest that the origins of the Morag Tong/DB are in fact older than the currently known records show directly.

Please note well the maybes :)


Well the Tong could definitely be older. The Brotherhood was formed after the Potentate was killed and they were outlawed. Apparently there some kind of religious dispute, and the Dark Brotherhood was formed sometime in the next 150-250 years after. I am guessing these people that did not agree with the Tong's bargain left and formed (the possible Dark Brotherhood) some kind of guild. If that wasn't the Dark Brotherhood, they may have met up with the Ex-thieves guild members.

I am also thinking that the Night Mother took off when the Tong exchanged worship. She was probably rejected as a traitor in the Tong, and became the primary figure for the Brotherhood; however, both organizations still worshiped Sithis. Basically, in my opinion, everything surrounded the traitor. The Dark Brotherhood views the Tong as religious traitors- the Tong views the Dark Brotherhood's leader as a traitor (and thus all of them are traitors).
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Steph
 
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Post » Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:02 am

Lore things in Oblivion really just svcked. Mannimarco was a wuss, the Dark Brotherhood wasn't as cool as they normally are. Everyone takes the DB all evil and such (which they kind of are), but life comes with death and vice versa. You want to use game mechanics or lore examples, many of the people the Dark Brotherhood killed were evil people who deserved to die- and more people would have been harmed had not the person been assassinated.


Well, one can agree that the Dark Brotherood isn't evil in the all too common 'I'm doing evil things cuz I'm eeevil' reason. But it doesn't make them come anywhere close to niceness. They're basically a bunch of amoral killers-for-hire who's only concern about whom they kill is getting paid. The sometimes frankly nasty peoples you're disposing of in Oblivion didn't end up on the Brotherhood list because they thought 'hey killing those nasty SOB would make the world a better place'. They did it only because someone paid them to do it. It also offers them a nice way to bring in a fresh recruit without harming whatever morals he might still have left. Laters missions amply demonstrate it, and so do the member's chatting. :
Murdering a retired hero-cop style watchman because he nailed some members during his service time, helping some bastard to escape from his creditors after he has killed his own mother to pay the 'blood price', or listening your orcish pal fondly remembering turning a birthday party into a bloodbath to off a 6 years old kid... That's more than enough proof of the Dark Brotherood's take on such matters.
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Shae Munro
 
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Post » Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:48 am

lol - a reference or direct quote on that would be useful jackfrost - unless you are just continuing the pure speculation that I started?

What this really comes down to is, the guy had the choice between mastubation and eating cave fungus, and he chose to build a statue.

The image screamed a path to his conscious, from the Dreamsleeve, and he gave it a name. He made it his Sithis. The last laugh is ours, because this is the process by which the gods were made.


Idols of the Cave are those which arise within the mind of the individual. This mind is symbolically a cavern. The thoughts of the individual roam about in this dark cave and are variously modified by temperament, education, habit, environment, and accident. Thus an individual who dedicates his mind to some particular branch of learning becomes possessed by his own peculiar interest, and interprets all other learning according to the colors of his own devotion.

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Cash n Class
 
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