Okay, I was just reminded of this idea earlier. Pretty much whenever something huge and earth-shattering happens (essentially game events or things related to the games themselves) we get a Dragon Break? I mean, daggerfall's ending, the Tribunal's ascention, etc. Now, this got me thinking, if in every major event every single possible outcome happened, and with only one known occurance where they were all stitched together, how can there be any valid argument for pretty much anything? For example, when I say the tribunal were powerful mortal leeches who stole the power of a gods to become fake ones and have no importance beyond the borders of Morrowind, I'm just as right as someone saying that Vivec is the single most important character in the series.

Am I way off with this or do they need to do something about them pesky Dragon Breaks?

Nerevar,

If I am not mistaken Dragonbreaks occur only on the apotheosis of gods, meaning, therefore, that not every game yields a Dragon Break. Most Dragon Breaks are relatively minor events which rewrite history only to consolidate the new god as always having been there. Most of history remains unaffected.

Vivec is importance is not due to his rise at Red Mountain but due to his relationship with Nerevar and the Nerevarine, as well as his political prowess and his metaphysical insights.

Hey, I'm just bringing up the idea. Once you allow for the idea that Time can be altered, you have to allow for a lot of possibilities. I don't deny Vivec is powerful, wise and cunning. I do however think, if you have two known timeleines where in one Vivec was always a god and in another he was a mortal leech, how many pother possible timelines are there?

Just trying to kick up some discussion, y'know. It's monday night and I'm bored.

Consider too closely the idea that certain kinds of events propagate not only forward in time, but backward as well, and you will go from being the Nerevarine to being a Sheogorine!

Fine by me. SI was great

Seriously though, I'm just trying to puzzle out that if all the daggerfall endings happened, meaning the history of the Iliac bay was such then many things then mixed into one, then if history was
1:Vehk the mortal councilor to nerevar betrays and murders him
2. Vehk the mortal councilor uses the heart, leeches divine power and becomes a god.
0: Time begins with a god named vivec, but at the same time the timeline with the mortal vivec was just as real.
Then what does that mean for not only history, but also the future of the series. I mean, consider also Mannimarco to make it even more fun.

It's utterly fascinating. Even more fascinating than the role of Vehk/Vivec at Red Mountain, is the role of Dagoth Ur. I no longer recall all the details (and I'd have to spend an hour re-reading all the varying accounts to figure it out), but I'm pretty sure he fought on both sides of the fight between Nerevar and Dumac, depending on which account you accept as "true", from the Imperial version, to the Five Songs, to Vivec's account, etc.

That's why it's fun, you need to choose one and accept that. It's not spelled out super clear and simple. My own personal belief is that dagoth ur had the best of intentions and fought for, not against, Nerevar, and his image was tainted due to the cunning of the god-kings, changing him from a nationalistic hero to a vile, evil monster, and over time the person followed suit.

I just realized something.

The Dragon Breaks I am familiar with (which are only two: the ending of Daggerfall and the Battle of Red Mountain) occur not merely when an ascension occurs, but when multiple factions fight over the Stone (and its tower?), whether that be the Mantella, or the Heart, or perhaps any other iteration of the Stone. For the Mantella, you had a number of factions who used it to split geographical power between them (Daggerfall, Wayrest, Sentinel, Orsinium, and wasn't there one more? I forgot.). For the Heart, you had a number of factions that used it to split divine power between them (The Tribunal and Dagoth Ur). You had the original owner of the stone present to reclaim it, whether it be The Underking Arctus (and ultimately, Wulfharth) reclaiming the Mantella, or The Underking Wulfharth (and ultimately, Lorkhan Himself), trying to reclaim his Heart. You have someone using it to become a god (Dagoth Ur and the Tribunal with regard to The Heart, The King of Worms and, possibly, Tiber Septim, with regard to The Mantella).

I find myself imagining a "quantum universes" vision of how time normally flows, with the Stones existing, to greater and lesser degrees, simultaneously in all possible universes. When you mess with the stones, the timelines get all overlapped, and all exist at the same time.

Perhaps The Convention was a battle (or debate?) over the Zero Stone, with The Dawn Era being the result. And is there any questionable timeline with regard to the period preceding the fall of the White Tower (and therefore, that red gem thingy whose names escape me) during the slave revolt? I know Marukhs bunch did something at some point, but I can't recall when.

I find myself imagining an Eye of Argonia, serving as a VERY tertiary stone (perhaps a hist experiment to gain understanding of the Elhnofey way of doing things), but, in the story, primarily serving as a simple "archaeological treasure" a few individual treasure hunters fight over... ultimately to results none of them predicted.

Hmm... I may actually have a fanfic brewing here.

Isn't it fun how sometimes stufff just clicks?

That is a very clever observation. There is always a fight involving a stone, or at least something involving a stone, for one to pop up. Hm...

I like that. I like that a lot.

I really really like that... and makes me think about something:

Maybe I got it wrong and need some help, just hear me out for a second.

What if time itself is an unnatural phenomenon? I mean, time is not linear for the gods. Past, present and future are all hapening at the same time for them.

It only presents itself "in linear form" (don?t know how to put it better) for us mortals. And since we all descend from the gods, maybe we have to aim at recovering or channelling that divine part present in every mortal (through enantiomorph or whatever) and achieve that divine state, where time means nothing.

Am I onto something here, or am I completely mistaken? Please help

Yes.

Keep going.

KEEP GOING????? Damn it, I ran out of gas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Need to do some more reading....

Is the letter from the 5th sort of a guide for that process? for mortals to transcend the boudries of Nirn?

Yes.

That will help you alot. Go read the Sermons and Vehk's Teachings too.

Don't forget about Love. Because of all the fighting, betrayals, etc the gods or the Stone itself uses the most simple solution to stop fighting and spread Love:to give power to ALL who fight for it. No exceptions.

Oh crap!!! I?m scared of the sermons... Don?t quite get them... I?m reading everything else but not the sermons yet. I dont think I?m ready for them, at least not right now.

First gotta go and read Siddharta and Kafka?s stories again.. I need to open my mind even further

Ahhh, all of the Sermons ain't that hard. Just keep an open mind about some of the stuff you read; look for the deeper meaning of some of the things that happen in the Sermons.

I can't believe I overlooked this thread. Some great stuff here.



Very nice. For some time now I've been working off the presumption that Towers (along with everything else they are), serve as anchors and convergence-points for various timelines. Assuming your main line of reasoning is more or less (leaning toward more) correct, one obvious next step is to think about how Kalpas fit in. By that I mean to ask: what is the "natural" timeline of Mundus without these dragon-breaks, or is there are natural timeline?

Personally, I think all this suggests that at any given moment the people of Tamriel are in the middle of a multi-temporal mythical conflict that children wage on their ancestors. It's like a big game of "he started it/no she started it" only backwards.




I assume you mean Hesse's Siddhartha? Interesting book, we read it in a philosophy of literature class. Our professor asked this question: so, after you've attained what Siddhartha has attained at the end of the book, what do you?

Haven't read Kafka (though I probably should). Currently working on Don Quixote (and Locke's Essay Concerning Human Understanding, a book on Hellenistic Philosophy, etc).

Anyways, regarding the sermons. I'd honestly suggest that the first time you read them you don't make any overt attempt at interpretation. Just read them like you'd read any story. If something leaves you bewildered, be bewildered. If something makes you laugh, then laugh. Read it as a story first, and only intentionally look for meaning after that. That would be my suggestion, at least.