The Problem With TES 4 Combat System : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:14 pm

Personally, I've always found the Morrowind combat system to be far more responsive considering that your character wasn't constantly stumbling or having their view swerve around like a flight simulator whenever I was attacking. Directional attacks were cumbersome in tight locations, but they overall were more fun for me to use than Oblivion's power attacks. I must've died so many times in TES IV simply because my character was too busy performing some dramatic 5 second sword swing that made me unable to move as fireballs of doom hurtled at him. I like to have control of my character as often as possible - after all, that's what RPGs are about. Something that seems to becoming increasingly ignored by game developers, if you ask me. Tell me the last time you've played a first person shooter (other than Valve's) from this past century wherein your character didn't stomp around like they had their feet stuck in the mud.

As it's been said, the missing in Morrowind is a representation of your enemy dodging your attacks, or perhaps your own character dropping or fumbling their weapon due to lack of expertise with it. It's always been that way - Arena, Daggerfall, and Battlespire simply had the courtesy to throw some whooshing and clanging sounds in to give the implication that your enemy was dodging or parrying.

Though the combat systems of both Morrowind and Oblivion are pretty broken and hardly a realistic representation of actual battle (assuming we even want that), I think that the player needs to have a stronger connection with their character and their improvement over time. In this case, I think Morrowind excels over Oblivion even though, at a glance, its combat system is far more open to failures. I can feel a strong sense of accomplishment when my character is able to reliably hit enemies that he'd previously be forced to run from. I can't really give a damn when my character goes from killing mudcrabs in 3 hits to killing them in 2. Especially when most fights in Elder Scrolls games are either incredibly drawn out or short and infrequent, and with few combatants all the same. Not like you'd ever be able to notice the change in the vanilla game with all the silly scaling.

Anyway, with regards to enchanted weapons, it really depends on their implementation and any background lore. Keltic Viking (the true, faithful phonetic pronunciation of Celtic!

) is correct in that people may be more skilled in certain weapons but certainly shouldn't be completely incapable of utilizing other weapons. I have always liked the idea of your weapon breaking and then having to smash your way to freedom using a fork or an iron hammer that you got off of an enemy. Really, enchantments are like scrolls - they were created, I believe, for their accessibility. Here's an idea - higher attributes or skills could allow your character to more effectively use enchantments, perhaps consuming less of the item's charge (or outright charging the item faster) due to their own ability to responsibly use and regulate the item's powers. A novice would still be able to take advantage of an item's abilities, but there would certainly be room for improvement if their character were better-adapted stat wise.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:55 pm

Personally, I've always found the Morrowind combat system to be far more responsive considering that your character wasn't constantly stumbling or having their view swerve around like a flight simulator whenever I was attacking. Directional attacks were cumbersome in tight locations, but they overall were more fun for me to use than Oblivion's power attacks. I must've died so many times in TES IV simply because my character was too busy performing some dramatic 5 second sword swing that made me unable to move as fireballs of doom hurtled at him. I like to have control of my character as often as possible - after all, that's what RPGs are about. Something that seems to becoming increasingly ignored by game developers, if you ask me. Tell me the last time you've played a first person shooter (other than Valve's) from this past century wherein your character didn't stomp around like they had their feet stuck in the mud.

As it's been said, the missing in Morrowind is a representation of your enemy dodging your attacks, or perhaps your own character dropping or fumbling their weapon due to lack of expertise with it. It's always been that way - Arena, Daggerfall, and Battlespire simply had the courtesy to throw some whooshing and clanging sounds in to give the implication that your enemy was dodging or parrying.

Though the combat systems of both Morrowind and Oblivion are pretty broken and hardly a realistic representation of actual battle (assuming we even want that), I think that the player needs to have a stronger connection with their character and their improvement over time. In this case, I think Morrowind excels over Oblivion even though, at a glance, its combat system is far more open to failures. I can feel a strong sense of accomplishment when my character is able to reliably hit enemies that he'd previously be forced to run from. I can't really give a damn when my character goes from killing mudcrabs in 3 hits to killing them in 2. Especially when most fights in Elder Scrolls games are either incredibly drawn out or short and infrequent, and with few combatants all the same. Not like you'd ever be able to notice the change in the vanilla game with all the silly scaling.

Anyway, with regards to enchanted weapons, it really depends on their implementation and any background lore. Keltic Viking (the true, faithful phonetic pronunciation of Celtic!

) is correct in that people may be more skilled in certain weapons but certainly shouldn't be completely incapable of utilizing other weapons. I have always liked the idea of your weapon breaking and then having to smash your way to freedom using a fork or an iron hammer that you got off of an enemy. Really, enchantments are like scrolls - they were created, I believe, for their accessibility. Here's an idea - higher attributes or skills could allow your character to more effectively use enchantments, perhaps consuming less of the item's charge (or outright charging the item faster) due to their own ability to responsibly use and regulate the item's powers. A novice would still be able to take advantage of an item's abilities, but there would certainly be room for improvement if their character were better-adapted stat wise.

Ding ding ding. We have a winrar.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:38 am

Hey this is supposed to be fun, not realy exactly realistic. Constantly missing isnt fun. So morrowinds combat wasnt fun and neither was Oblivions combat with its constant "hit hit block" combat. Missing and dodging should be completely dependant on the NPC and players skill (you cant "hit hit block" with an ogre, they will just maul you so you need skill), and dmg should be dependant on weapon skill, and/or perhaps a dice roll. But more than this, the fighting should be dynamic and exciting, with your oponent using fighting teqniques like you do, and adding diversity to combat methods.

In oblivion animals just ran at you and attacked continuously no matter what attacked you, even mud craps and rats (who should be terrified of you) would all run at you like they all had rabies. And the NPCs were just as bad.

No monster sized rats or mudcrabs plz.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:27 am

It's pretty obvious that a purely die-roll based combat system would take a lot of heat, if not fail miserably, on the modern (especially console) market, but it's also pretty obvious that an "arcade" combat system fails in terms of character development: it's not an RPG if the character's skills don't matter. I can't speak for everyone, but I play the TES games primarily as a RPG, NOT as a FPS. If TES V turns out to be more of a FPS than OB, count me out. I won't waste my money on it.

Die rolls don't have to be purely "hit or miss", and they can be used as a MODIFIER to a skill-based and/or player-based result, rather than as the main determining factor. You can easily have more than two possible outcomes, only one of which would be an outright miss, and that one might only happen under extreme circumstances. Other "intermediate" results could be a weak hit for up to half damage, a partially blocked or "non-penetrating" hit that knocks the opponent back or fatigues the opponent somewhat but causes no actual injury, a solid hit that does between half and full rated damage, or a critical hit that causes somewhere between full and double damage.

By making the combat "die roll" rely on both the weapon skill of the player character and on the relevant defensive skill of the opponent, mismatched combats between a very skilled and a very unskilled combatant will be short and one-sided (as they should be), where the less able fighter frequently does weak hits or even misses completely, whereas the more capable fighter would very rarely (if ever) miss, and do more damage on average due to the more frequent solid and critical hits, with less weak hits. Combats between relative equals would tend to have more "middle" results, with very few outright misses and almost no critical hits until one or the other was weakened enough to increase the difference in combat effectiveness enough to allow it to happen.

On top of all that, having the weapon's SPEED and ACCURACY affected by the character's weapon skill is another way to re-introduce skill effects into a primarily player-based combat system.

Having damage as a constant, as in OB, made very little sense, where your weapon ALWAYS did a fixed amount of damage until your skills changed. MW allowed you to either spam attacks for a variable and controllable fraction of the weapon's rating, or "charge" the attack long enough to develop full rated damage. Different weapon types required more or less time to develop full power, making some better for "spamming" enchantments and others better for causing knockdowns and stuns. You could release the button at any time, not committing your character to a lengthy "power attack" animation as in OB.

Overall, I felt much more in control of combats in MW than in OB: in MW you could vary the attack strength versus speed and do any of three different attack forms; in OB you either pushed the button and waited for the attack animation to play or else held the button and waited for the power attack animation to play. Missing a lot may be boring and frustrating, but only having two attack options isn't my idea of "fun" either. One system looked terrible and was frustrating to start out; the other lacked any sense of "improvement" and got increasingly boring and frustrating as the game progressed. Combat has been, in my opinion, one of the worst parts of the TES series; the next game's combat HAS to be better.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:27 pm

im a real RPGer
It is a fact. the combat mechanics are broken because they reflect the player instead of the character and its not supposed to since its a RPG and you play a role, not yourself.

No, it's a game with RPG aspects. Can you imagine how awful the gaming market would be if everything had to abide to certain rules simply because of their genre?

That's ridiculous. Also, TES:V could be an flight simulator for all we know, it doesn't have to be a "pure RPG" (whatever the hell that is) simply because the early games were

I like the mix of action and RPG. You're playing your character, yes, so let me play him, not just play as a casual observer clicking on stuff

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:01 am

In real life, if I svcked a swordplay I would get an enchanted weapon to make up for my handicap. It is totally accurate and plausible and a facet of the real world feel of the games. You have the choice of not playing fair. As for being able to hit as a matter of player skills as opposed to the character's skill set, it's called "game play" and it need not be a bad thing to let it trump aspects of traditional RPG some of the time where the payoff is bigger to make a game with the best strengths of both. I wish Oblivion was more like Morrowind on most things, to have hitting what you can hit count for something isn't one of those things.

...or to reverse it, if a rat dodges or if a bandit blocks or whatever, I want to see the animation of that too.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:53 am

My combat wishlist for TESV:

Missing. Perhaps a high hit rate for those that don't like traditional RPG aspects in thier RPG's for some reason.
Togglable power attacks (I don't like them. Not to say it' a bad idea, I just don't feel that if I prefer not to have them, I should have to use them, and lose the ability to hold back a weapon.)
Skill based blocking. I'm assuming we're sticking with Oblivion's method (which I hate, tbh), but skill should still determine something. If I have a low skill, I'd have to time the block right. If I had, say, 100 block, I could last for around 10 seconds until my block starts to make itself redundant. (The chance to block slowly/rapidly (depending on level) decreases as it's held up).
Well balanced magic. Is it really so much to ask to be just as good (not overly powerful, or stupidly weak) as any other class in the game, throughout the game, if I'm a mage?
Improved stealth. Ability to hide, non psychic guards and climbing, to name a few aspects.
The inclusion of lost skills. At least from Morrowind.

One or more of these, and I'd be a very happy guy.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:06 am

Dice rolls as in old RPGs, I hate that. Showing dice rolls to the player is like showing your intestines. They work but we don't need to see them.

Dice rolls, as I repeatedly explained, are part of simulations.

x = 0 to 99, random number generation.

hit chance >x :success

Morrowind's complex formula:

HC = Attacker's weapon skill * 1.25 + Attacker's Attack (e.g. Warrior = 10) - Defender's Sanctuary (e.g. Thief = 10) + (Attacker's Agility - Defender's Agility) * 0.25 + (Attacker's Luck - Defender's Luck) * 0.125

now let's see how Oblivion *fixes* Morrowind combat.

Oblivion's formula
HC = Attacker's weapon skill * 1.25 + Attacker's Attack (e.g. Warrior = 10) - Defender's Sanctuary (e.g. Thief = 10) + (Attacker's Agility - Defender's Agility) * 0.25 + (Attacker's Luck - Defender's Luck) * 0.125 + 100

Wow, amazing. Who thought that?

PS. What I am saying is, Morrowind's formula can be developed further. And I accidentally posted this.

I have to clear my mind about Oblivion. Such a love-hate relationship.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:04 am

SNIP

I would rather have Oblivions combat be developed further, given the elder scrolls perspective, I feel it would work better with dice rolls effecting what happens when you hit, rather than controlling when you hit, which the FP perspective controls will overlap.

EDIT:

I should probably elaborate on this.

Oblivions combat was good, but stats should have more influence on it. I like that hitting was determined by physics rather than dice rolls, given that a first person perspective demands more player involved control, but stats and skills should have been implemented in another way, which leads me to my suggestion.

I want critical hit and critical failure back in the game, I want damage to be an interval rather than a set number. These would allow stats and character skills to have more influence on combat taking control away from the player.

I want power attacks to be something that you can learn on all times, but that an successful power attack is determined by you're skill with that type of weapon. It doesn't have to be power attacks either, it can be fighting styles, or a combination of attacks as well. The chance of failure could then be 0% when you reach the appropriate skill level. This would mean that you don't just magically learn a new ability over night, because you leveled up. This could apply to magic as well, so that you don't have to "unlock" certain high level spells.

Examples:

Critical failure could be something which was relatively high with a skill below 25, but gradually decreasing as you near lvl 25.
Again the same could apply with Critical Hit, only in the other end of the skill level scale.

Basically all Critical failure and Critical success could be applied to all skills, giving stats and skills greater impact on behavior where they are required.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:31 am

In Morrowind your fighting depended upon your weapon skills. Weapons all did the same amount of damage regardless of skill, but what was affected was the player's to-hit chance. If the skill was low the weapon would miss, if the skill was high the weapon would hit. Some people complained however that this led to an unrealistic game, in which you would stab a sword directly into someone's face and still miss.

So for Oblivion the formula was changed. Instead of weapon skill affecting the to-hit chance it was changed to affect damage. All weapons would now damage the enemy they hit regardless of skill. People who prefer RPG mechanics were less pleased with this change as it meant that combat was now dependent upon player skill, meaning if you were incompetant at dodging, blocking, and striking at the right moment you would do poorly, while fans of action games considered it more favourably. The argument that the designers used to claim that 'it's still an RPG' and that weapon skills still actually had a point was that they affected how much damage was done, so if you had a low weapon skill it would be harder to kill enemies.

Here we come to the problem - enchanted weapons.

In Morrowind enchantment was a skill, it affected how much of an item's weapon charge you used, and also your chances of creating an enchanted item if you attempted to do so yourself. In Oblivion enchantment was removed as a skill completely, all weapons ran out of charges at a pre-decided rate based upon the strength of the enchantment, and enchanting was added as a service available from an activator.

The problem that arises from enchanted weapons (with an onhit enchantment) is that if they have an enchantment that does damage such as fire, frost, lighting, or health, then they will always do that exact amount of damage. In Morrowind it wouldn't matter because unless the player's skill was high enough to hit the enemy the enchantment wouldn't have any effect - hence it didn't interfere in the RPG mechanics. In Oblivion however since every weapon will hit all the time it completely throws the damage calculation based upon skill formula out the window and in doing so makes a mockery of the claims that 'it's still an RPG'.

Consider this example:

A player has a sword skill of 100 and a blunt skill of 10. They have in their inventory a plain iron shortsword and an iron mace enchanted with a 20 point fire enchantment. The damage of the iron shortsword caps out at 10, meanwhile due to the player's low blunt score the iron mace only has a damage of 1. However when we add the enchantment in the damage of the mace jumps up to 21. You can see how ridiculous this looks in the table below:

Skill Level Damage
Sword 100 10
Blunt 10 21

Now according to traditional RPG mechanics the player should choose to use the weapon of their highest skill to be the most effective. Yet in Oblivion's case since weapons will always hit all the time the damage provided by an enchantment can negate all of the difference in damage provided by differences in skill levels. If there is no benefit to having a higher weapon skill level then why not just get rid of all the weapon skills entirely?

For TES 5 Bethesda has a choice to make. They can continue with Oblivion's style of combat in which always hitting enchanted weapons ruin the weak RPG combat mechanics the game has, or they can fundamentally change how enchanted weapons work. They could bring back the importance of weapon skills by making the enchantment dependant upon the weapon skill as well - e.g a weapon with a 10 point fire enchantment is split up so that only 1 point of damage is added for every 10 levels. Or they could re-add in the enchantment skill and make the power of enchantments dependant upon that skill. Or they could make the enchantment a weapon to-hit chance, that way the weapon would always hit to please the action crowd, while the enchantment would only hit based upon weapon skill to please the RPG crowd.

There are many different methods that Bethesda could approach to fixing the broken RPG combat found in Oblivion. They could rediscover their RPG roots by making charcter skills more important than player skills. Or we could end up with the same fundamental problem that occured in Oblivion (though I certainly hope not).

i see where u get that damage idea being absurd. but oblivions combat is hands down better then morrowinds(my opinion), they just need to change what the weapon skill does

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:51 am

Actually the problem is, it's boring

Seriously though, there aren't enough options, nor interesting ones.

"Good gameplay is about making interesting choices" -Sid Meir

And you don't have those during combat in The Elderscrolls. Instead of choosing between mostly the same power attacks there should be more choice between defense and offense, and how you do each one of those.

Dodge works really well in Assassin's Creed 2, it's just the jump button and a direction that's not forward. You hop that direction, and thus probably out of harms way, depending on the attack. Let's take a scenario:

You are being attacked by an enemy, and want to move defensively. You can:
Block
Dodge

If the enemy is using a long weapon like a spear, dodging might not be so good. He can still reach you. Thus blocking would be the better choice. If he's using a powerful axe, dodging might be more effective than blocking, since a lot of damage might get through a block, but he won't be able to reach you because of his short weapon.

And now a scenario where you want to attack. Say you can choose between:
Normal press for a normal attack.
Press and hold for a power attack. Slower but will knock the enemy back/do more damage.

If you're fighting a lot of less powerful enemies, focusing on getting in as man hit's as possible is preferable to slower, possibly overly damaging hits.
If you're fighting a single big enemy, say on the edge of a cliff or with a powerful attack, knocking him down the cliff or over to prevent him counterattacking would be preferable to hacking away at him bit by bit.

What makes these choices interesting is that you have a split second under a high pressure situation to decide which is best. This also wouldn't require any more buttons to control than Oblivion did.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:48 pm

i think the oblivion combat system is better than morrowind's purely because the misses in morrowind's system didn't have dodge, fumble, or any animations to explain why you were missing. the only aspect of morrowind's combat i miss is a damage ranges for weapons. I hate how i can basically count the exact number of hits it is going to take to kill an enemy in oblivion since the damage is static.

on the gameplay side, i think the oblivion mod Deadly Reflex (best oblivion ever imho) fixed most of the problems i have with the oblivion combat system. the addition of a shield bash button and a dodge button adds a lot more variety to the fights and fixes the "swing swing block" monotony that fights in oblivion boil down to. the sweet fatality moves from the mod are just a bonus!

i think the next step to improving combat in the next ES game should be creating differences in combat styles between the various weapons. Honestly, i don't see the point in various weapon skills if all weapons are basically treated the same way. In the ES world it seems a master swordsman would be just as masterful wielding a two-hand axe as he would a dagger- since the weapons are basically treated the same way in combat. You don't swing a claymore the same way you swing a short sword- hell you don't even stand the same way! That is even more true when comparing maces to axes or maces to swords. While i am not advocating truly real life style combat, i think real differences in how each weapon type behaves would really liven up the combat and increase replay value. Even something like only the power moves having different effects would be nice, or just something superficial like different looking swing, parry, and thrust animations. A prime example that has always bothered me is how katanas are treated the same as western style swords. They are handled completely different in reality and it would be nice to see that reflected in the game.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:05 am

Dodge works really well in Assassin's Creed 2, it's just the jump button and a direction that's not forward. You hop that direction, and thus probably out of harms way, depending on the attack. Let's take a scenario:

You are being attacked by an enemy, and want to move defensively. You can:
Block
Dodge

If the enemy is using a long weapon like a spear, dodging might not be so good. He can still reach you. Thus blocking would be the better choice. If he's using a powerful axe, dodging might be more effective than blocking, since a lot of damage might get through a block, but he won't be able to reach you because of his short weapon.

And now a scenario where you want to attack. Say you can choose between:
Normal press for a normal attack.
Press and hold for a power attack. Slower but will knock the enemy back/do more damage.

If you're fighting a lot of less powerful enemies, focusing on getting in as man hit's as possible is preferable to slower, possibly overly damaging hits.
If you're fighting a single big enemy, say on the edge of a cliff or with a powerful attack, knocking him down the cliff or over to prevent him counterattacking would be preferable to hacking away at him bit by bit.

Of course, this is exactly how combat works in Oblivion (sans having spears).

Additonally, Oblivion had more than a 'quick attack'/'power attack'. You did different power attacks depending on the direction you move (holding back+attack did a different power attack than holding sideways+attack, which did a different power attack than holding forward+attack), and different power attacks had different uses. A sideways power attack, for instance, has a bigger chance of disarming an opponent, and a backwards power attack has a higher chance of knocking an opponent down, while a forward power attack makes you lunge at the target.

» Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:25 pm

That backwards power attack seemed really useless to me. Mapping different types of attacks was smart, but lunging backwards 10 feet...strange.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:34 am

Of course, this is exactly how combat works in Oblivion (sans having spears).

Additonally, Oblivion had more than a 'quick attack'/'power attack'. You did different power attacks depending on the direction you move (holding back+attack did a different power attack than holding sideways+attack, which did a different power attack than holding forward+attack), and different power attacks had different uses. A sideways power attack, for instance, has a bigger chance of disarming an opponent, and a backwards power attack has a higher chance of knocking an opponent down, while a forward power attack makes you lunge at the target.

Except you didn't have dodge, nor could you knock guys over cliff's, nor did the decisions really matter because you have so much health that you're some walking tank sponge.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:14 am

...nor could you knock guys over cliff's...

you can knock enemies over cliffs with a backwards power attack, and a bit of luck. if you play on the computer your other two problems are fixed by mods.

while i think its silly that a mod has to "correct" oblivion's combat, modding is my favorite thing about TES games

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:09 am

That backwards power attack seemed really useless to me. Mapping different types of attacks was smart, but lunging backwards 10 feet...strange.

I always found it the most useful. If you dart forward sharply and then instantly unleash it then it will hit the enemy whilst keeping you out of harms way

Also I find it useful when the enemy is charging at you, when they swing you use it, it dodges their attack and you land a hit

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:23 am

Except you didn't have dodge

Hold block, a direction, and press jump. Though one of your skills needs to be high enough before you can do it.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:20 am

I'm casting my lot in with the "more dice" people. It just makes more sense for the game. I do understand, however, that there has always been an action element to TES games, because the whole thing happens in real time. That was why combat in Morrowind felt so awkward, because the game seemed to be controlled in real time like a shooter, until combat started and your shooter skills count for nothing.

Basically, there needs to be some elegant way to allow physically less-skilled players of high-level characters to kick ace, and have expert twitchboys playing low-level characters get pwned, with good strategy and good character development being the key deciders in combat. This is what Morrowind did in an extremely clunky, unfun way, and the exact opposite of what Oblivion did. How? That's a tough one, but I know there must be a way. Perhaps a good start, as suggested, would be to use Morrowind-like mechanics but add all the audio-visual cues that show why you missed. Things like characters dodging or having your weapon swing off to the side randomly. This would make your character feel clumsy at early levels, where you can't hit what you see, but would allow you to gain better and better control at higher levels. Of course, enemies would have to play by the same rules, missing on their swings too so that you don't have to worry about dodging attacks yourself. Mostly. And you could choose to block, but not choose your timing.

I dunno. Would that work?

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:43 am

i see where u get that damage idea being absurd. but oblivions combat is hands down better then morrowinds(my opinion), they just need to change what the weapon skill does

I never said that they should go back to dice rolls for a to-hit combat system (aka Morrowind). I said they need to address the problem of enchanted weapons making the skills obsolete since they allow you to do more (much more) damage with a weapon that you are unskilled in than with a weapon that you are skilled in. That's why I called it 'the problem with TES 4 combat system' and talked about enchantments throughout the entire post. I didn't say Morrowind's combat was better than Oblivion's. I didn't say enchanted weapons break Oblivion's skill system so they should go back to a to-hit combat system.

What I did say was that they need to fix the problem caused by enchanted weapons allowing you to do more consistent damage with a weapon that you are unskilled in than a weapon that you are skilled in. Get it? I realise that most action gamers and people born before 1990 (who make up the majority of Bethesda's fan base now) aren't willing to accept a game in which you can stab someone in the face and not see any damage. That's why I didn't call the thread "TES 4 Combat system svcks, bring back the Morrowind system".

Have a look at Fallout 3 and New Vegas. See how effective it is using a melee weapon when you are unskilled in it against a high level opponent. You usually don't win. Do you know why? Because there are no enchantments in the Fallout games. Since there will be enchantments in the next TES game Bethesda needs to make sure that they address the problem caused by always-hit weapons and enchantments or they will have the same useless skill system that occured in Oblivion.

Again, what I suggested were several methods that Bethesda might like to consider in order to make their weapon skills important again and prevent enchantments from breaking the system. Another poster suggested tying enchantment levels to a weapon skill meaning you couldn't use the enchanted weapon unless you had a high enough skill level. Rather than posting a kind of unhelpful comment about oblivion's combat being hands down better than morrowinds (don't like those skills being worth anything do you?), you might want to suggest another idea instead perhaps. Thanks and I hope I don't sound too terse, but I don't like people misrepresenting what I have said.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:57 am

I've been on the X3 Terran Conflict forums and have noticed that the game devs regularly post on the forum and discuss the mods being made and post thier own mods. Thats great. Why cant we have input like that for TES, rather than them having to be so tight lipped that they dont even say hello. Man, I'd hate working at bethesda, itd be so tight thered be no room to breath. i bet the staff at Bethesda have to get signed written permission just to breath. Signed in triplicate, sent forward, sent back, subjected to public inquiry, and finally burried under soft pete for 3 months then resused as firelighters.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:04 am

Using weapon skills to change the SPEED and the ACCURACY of your attacks could be a big factor in blending RPG and FPS mechanics into a workable solution. If your weapon often goes slightly aside of where you intended to hit, it may or it may not still hit the opponent, or hit in a less vital or better protected spot. If the swing is slower, it gives the opponent more time to dodge, block, or parry the attack. Regardless of how good your "twitch" skills are, an unskilled character would fight a lot worse than a skilled one.

Weapon enchantments are merely one aspect of the overall problem, but need to either be addressed seperately or covered by whatever change they do to combat. One option might be to have one's skill with that school of enchantment determine how powerfully the enchantment fires, how many charges it uses, whether it fires at all on that particularly weak or blocked strike, or a combination of factors. You might be untrained with an axe and not very good at killing someone with it, but know how to make excellent use of the illusion enchantment on it to demoralize or confuse the opponent. Having the effect of the enchantment controlled by your skill with that weapon seems counter-intuitive.

My assumption is that, by now, Bethesda has already defined the combat mechanism and done whatever it is that they're going to do in the next game, so we're actually discussing changes for TES VI.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:50 am

Using weapon skills to change the SPEED and the ACCURACY of your attacks could be a big factor in blending RPG and FPS mechanics into a workable solution.

Those are two very important aspects of combat that were completely omitted in Oblivion (and Morrowind for speed). In the example of the OP, the enchantment wouldn't cause any balance issue if the weapon it's on didn't act like an heat-seeking missile. Also, concerning weapon speed, I think a mage with a Blade skill of 15 shouldn't be able to wield a dagger like he's some sort of ninja. Instead, if the attack speed was dependant on a combination of the weapon skill and the speed stat, that would make a lot more sense and add a true feeling of progression/mastery.

What I'm saying here, is that enchantments aren't the cause of the problem, merely a symptom of it.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:37 pm

imo, enchanted weapons are slightly more power if the system is exploited in oblivion. I still had a weapon that would drop any daedric lord pretty quick in both games. but it MW, the thing recharged on its own, where as in oblivion it was severely costly to recharge, or slightly cumbersome manage all the soul trapping, and needed mods to make it fun

that said, I'd say oblivion's method fails a bit more than MW, not because it messed with the OPs limited view that enchanted weapons messed with skill leveling, lol did you just compare the damage a normal weapon does to the damage a rare magical ENCHANTED weapon does, and complain that the enchanted one is more powerful, even though you svck at using it. Seems to be about right to me. I see what you mean, but ffs it's a MAGIC and more powerful weapon. It's not the weapon that is doing the damage, or your skill with it, it is the magic.

anyway, without mods, managing enchanted weapons in OB was slightly more annoying rather than fun compared to MW. the system can definitely be improved.

» Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:49 am

Personally I hated the Morrowind style system, starting the game and getting killed by a rat was to frustrating. I do understand the problems with Oblivion combat system since (unlike Morrowind) I have never bothered to master weapon skills since I could kill any enemy easily.
What I would prefer is to see the enchantment skill come back but your level in it directly effects the strength of enchanted weapons you could use, If your skill is low you could only use weak enchanted weapons - the Higher skill the better weapons available to you. This way it it adds a new aspect to the combat for the RPG side without returning to the Morrowind system of constant missing.
Just my thoughts

An approach can be fine, but the implementation flawed. I think the issue with Morrowind was that your chance to hit started out too low and then increased too rapidly. Of course, using conjured weapons that come with 15 points in weapon skill can remove much of that frustration, but introduces other imbalances.