There's something that's really bothering me, and I'd like to know the opinion of the Lore buffs here, and other players in general, about it.

Now, to me, the signs of the prophecy about Alduin's return dont make a lot of sense (since when divinity made sense anyway?). There is however, a piece of information that sort of holds it together, but its a biased piece of information from Camoran (from Oblivion), and him being a Daedra worshipper, maybe relying on him isnt the safest bet.

Acording to Mankar Camoran Lorkhan is actually a Daedra Prince, who had been tricked out of his daedric plane (Nirn, the "real" world). Now, he mentions something else, that I dont remember accurately, but can be constructed as Lorkhan being tricked by the Divines, leading to the whole thing about his Heart, ect. However, Camoran seems to imply that the Covenant with Akatosh was part of this trick, where the rest of Oblivion is sealed from Nirn, and the Divines seem to have free reign on this usurped daedric plane that Nirn is.

So, if we take the events of the Prophecy as tied to Lorkhan, they start making sense. It is believed by some that Tiber Septim has the same essence, via an Oversoul, as the Underking and that other guy from Daggerfall (forgot his name). The three form the figure that is known as Tiber Septim. However, it seems there's a belief (which I read in the Elder Scrolls Wiki, but it doesn't have a reference, as almost nothing in that wiki), that this Oversoul was somehow administered by Shezzar, which is just a Cyridiilic interpretation of Lorkhan. Thus, by the deeds of the figure of Tiber Septim, Shezzar, known as "the Missing God" of the Eight Divines, ascends to be venerated as a divine (Talos, therefore now being Nine Divines). So, in some sense, it is Lorkhan plotting to become once again a part of the world he designed (or, as Camoran would put it, a plan to retake his daedric plane, stolen by the Divines).

Taking all this into account, the events of the Prophecy seem to hold together. I have found no info as to where the Staff of Chaos came from, but since Arena says it was created "from the Land itself", we can assume there's some essence of Lorkhan there, since part of his essence fell to Nirn after his body split (the Moons); also there seems to be some connection in the Staff's abilities, which basically gave you free passage to Oblivion (which fits into the conception of Lorkhan wantin to return to his world via some means). The return of Numidium also might tell us something, since it was to be activated by the Mantella, which mimicked Lorkhan's Heart, and I THINK it had some essence of Tiber Septim or something (which would be interesting if we hold to the Tiber Septim/Lorkhan Oversoul theory).

Now, the events at Red Mountain need no explanation, since Lorkhan's Heart was part of the plot. The Oblivion Crisis seems to have shaken things, allowing Daedra to roam freely in Nirn.

In the end, this is what I think: All of this establishes in my mind the possibility that the events of the Prophecy are tied to a plot by Lorkhan to regain what was his. This is taking as true the Camoran theory, however, its the only thing that for me can make sense of the prophetic signs. Now that the Dragonfires are forever dim, and the Dragonborn line that could use the Amulet of Kings from the Covenant with Akatosh no longer keep these fires lit, Akatosh's designs are in ruin. Therefore, the return of Alduin, the second aspect of Akatosh, as the destroyer, which would be a natural opposite pole to Time (Time-End Time, Beginning - End).

I think the return of Alduin heralds the destruction of the world by the Divines, since they can no longer keep hold of it by keeping the essence of Lorkhan (or any Daedra) at bay.

You may be right..



I wish they could release a book or series of books of the Elder Scrolls so one could read all the prophecies, it would be interesting reading :biggrin:

You know, you should put this all in a spoiler thing. honestly, it makes so much sense that I think this story's going to be in the game lol

I thought stuff relating directly to lore didn't need to be in a Spoiler tag. This is more relating to lore and it isn't really anything that wasn't already listed in Books from the previous games or on GI's Skyrim hub.

yeah I know. I was just saying that if it turns true, it might reveal quite a large deal about the story. the spoiler thing was mostly a joke

Very well-thought-out theory.


You're right there. It's just a question of where his bias lies.


Tamriel was never remotely like a Daedric Realm, although Lorkhan is a Padomaic spirit and could therefore be considered a Daedra Lord. Nirn was always meant to be a collaborative project with other Aedric spirits involved. The sticking point is that Akatosh, Trinimac and perhaps the other current Divines attacked and dismembered him. But the Mundus is unique and can't revert to any previous form. The 16 Realms are made of the the Princes themselves, for the most part, while Tamriel is the flesh and blood of the Aedra and Ehlnofex plus the divine spark of Lorkhan. His body is cut in half and floating in orbit.

The usual story is that it was the other way around. Lorkhan tricked the Aedra into binding themselves to the mortal world and becoming mortal with it. That is why Akatosh killed him, in revenge. Mundus was sealed off from Oblivion in the first place by Akatosh having Lorkhan's Heart shot into the ocean. But Lorkhan probably didn't want a Daedric playground anyway.


That's an idea that's been floated before, and teased by MK. It's very tentative. What is certain is that 'echoes' of Lorkhan constantly reappear in history. He has more avatars than James Cameron.

But Tiber Septim is very complex. The Nords know him as Ysmir, also a Dragon like Alduin yet also a Thu'um user like Lorkhan/King Wulfharth. He took Shezarr's place in the pantheon, but Tiber Septim the Divine doesn't act too much like Lorkhan.


Again, all tentative associations, although it could very well be the case.

This is really the speculative money shot of ES lore. Is there a trend in the events of metaphysical history that will have mythic consequences? If so, some big [censored] is going to go down, and you know Lorkhan will play a large role in it.

I think the end of TES IV was the triumph of Akatosh and the Covenant. The Dragonfires are out, but they have been replaced. If the Covenant was not reforged, then for what did Martin sacrifice himself and what is keeping Mehrunes Dagon out?


Maybe this is happening anyway. Maybe Nirn is getting to bloated and tangled with mythic and temporal messes like the Dragon Breaks and too many aspects of the same god. Maybe the mer meddled with reality too much with White-Gold Tower. Maybe Red Tower's fall is having further repercussions.


Disagree. It heralds the destruction of the world by Alduin. The other Divines lack the ability and the motive, for their role is to keep the world around and they are weak. Any activity by Lorkhan should be considered separate from Daedric activity. If Lorkhan were to come back, I don't think we should assume that they would necessarily oppose him.

the staff of chaos is pretty well defined in the 36 sermons.

The words 'staff' and 'chaos' each appear once in the Sermons, both times referring to the Wheel metaphor and not explicitly the Staff. By what other name is it called when it is defined?

I admit that my theory relies a lot on Mankar Camoran's account that Lorkhan is a daedric prince, and the whole story about Nirn being a collaborative effort just a fairy tale (dont they say that the winners write history?).

I dont know, but I really hope some deep bat dung occurs in Skyrim.

But I dont understand the Oblivion ending well. If the Covenant is broken, and Akatosh won, then how can everything now be in such a state of disrepair?

Never trust the words of an elf, especially a Camoran! Besides, I'm pretty sure he was half out of his gourd anyway. Cipher 8 had a pretty good theory. My hypothesis is that the Hero will be a Shezzarine who has to put Alduin back in the Akatosh-box. Bonus question: Are the rest of the dragons that we fight in Skyrim (assuming that we do indeed fight Alduin), the time-mending lady dragon "jills?"

Certainly we'll learn what dragons actually are, where they come from, and what their nature is.

I'm pretty sure Mankar Camoran had absolutely no idea what he was talking about whatsoever. Lorkhan, by definition, is not a Daedra. The Daedric Princes are those that did not take part in the creation of Mundus. Lorkhan was the one who had the idea to create it and is responsible for it in the first place.

Also, Mankar isn't trustworthy in my opinion based solely on the fact that he had no idea whose Daedric realm was whose.

Coldharbour is Molag Bal's, Quagmire is Vaermina's, and Moonshadow is Azura's. That discredits a lot of what he was saying right there. I don't think the developers would intentionally have him make such silly errors but also be correct about Lorkhan and Tamriel.

If he is correct, then your theory is great and makes perfect sense. I'm pretty sure he is not though.

I dont think thats as much Camoran's fault, as is Bethesda's. That was a writing screw up haha

The problem is you are basing your opinion on him being wrong, on accepting as true what he is telling you isn't true. Thats logically fallacious as a way of doubting something. Thats like a fundamentalist telling you that God must exist because the Bible says so. Well, if I am questioning the Bible, then you have to prove me its validity, not just take that truth at face value if you want to riposte at my position.

These myths are all in the realm of interpretation, and men and mer dont interpret it the same way. So, really, there's no way to know if Lorkhan was a Daedra Prince or not. All we have are the "official versions" of both daedric worshippers, and divine worshippers.

No it isn't. It's Mankar's argument, ergo the burden of proof falls on him. It would be different if we cornered him on the street in the Imperial City while he was minding his business, shoving pamphlets in his face while pontificating that he must either devote himself to The Nine or suffer whatever afterlife torment Imperial Cult dogma assigns to infidels, then yes, we would have to prove that the gods are real and Nirn's metaphysical heavies. In any case, confusing the ownership of the Daedric principalities certainly doesn't help him.

Either way, his account is the only thing making the prophecy make sense.