Hello all

Has anyone ever seen the whole of the prophet of Anvil's speech anywhere online? I'm wondering about certain things he says but whenever I listen to him, he repeats dialogue I've heard before, not the dialogue I want to hear. I'm trying to find his quotes about birthsigns and something about a "wolf of naught".

Also, does his speeches change depending on how you're doing on the KOTN questline? If so, what does he say?

If there exists a link to the dialogue online, I'd be most grateful to read it.

Found it for you. The Imperial Library Lore Website has everything you could ask for. Here's the link to the whole speech of the Prophet: http://www.imperial-library.info/tsoo/kotn01a.shtml

Varus Torvyn, you da man! Thanks dude :foodndrink:

Now, can you explain it to me? I understand it, for the most parts, but when he talks about and
I start to get a bit lost. Do the birthsigns actually guard Tamriel and creation?

It seems the prophet moves away from Umaril and onto the issue of the main quest: He talks about the breaking of the wheel and all sorts of "doom saying nonsence", and I don't get the reference.

You're better off asking in the lore forum.

Well the birthsigns are stars, not Zodiac inventions, and the Serpent does represent a threat to Mundus from Oblivion, which the others counter. I know next to nothing about this, however, it's one of the subjects where I draw a blank.

He also refers to the flickering of the Dragonfires and the MQ (I can only assume the author assumed that this would occurr post-MQ, but we've seen this sort of expansion crapshoot before with Tribunal). The Wheel is a metaphor for the structure of the universe, or rather a conceptual model. Mundus is the hub where the axels meet, and it is this that Umaril and Dagon seek to remove.

Thanks paws. So is the Sepent literally a serpent or is that just a metaphore for something bad?

As to the flickering of the Dragonfires, surely if it's assumed that the KOTN questline is done after the main quest, wouldn't the prophet's speech be less doom laden? What I mean is that the quote about the Birthsigns isn't prophecy, it is said as fact. Like the Serpent is attacking and that the signs are powerless. Even if Umaril is beaten and the main quest complete, Tamriel is doomed? Or is it more like that Mundus is under attack from the Serpent (which is Dagon and Umaril)?

And what is a "flea of assertion on a wolf of naught"? Where does that qoute come from and what does it mean?

Basically he's just portending doom in several artful ways. Not all of them refer specifically to Umaril and can be read into. The Serpent is a collection of stars with abnormal attributes. Like I said, I can't give you a good explanation on them. Maybe if you asked that the thread be moved to lore you could get an explanation.

The rest of the quote goes "all interplay is a flea..." This refers to the fact that Mundus is an impossible creation that only continues to exist because it doesn't realize the truth of its own illogical nature. Nirn is made of the interplay of two opposites, and one plus negative one equals zero. Mortal minds reject this heavy-handed reality, and refuse to let the dream end by waking up, because that would mean oblivion. A tiny insect screaming at the top of its lungs to make a massive carnivore pay attention.

But the prophet refers to that qoute as a heresy. What is heretical about it? What are the two opposites? Also, you mention about letting the dream end by waking up which is very similar to something Pelinal says in the song. Did you intend to make that connection? If so, what does that mean?

I noticed that when I looked at its context, but I can only guess. (I thought of an answer after typing the second paragraph of this post.)

As for the dreaming thing, Pelinal and I were both referencing the same metaphor, that the world is the dream of a sleeping being who has forgotten that he is asleep... or maybe he is lucid dreaming (actually the ways people have described it diverge wildly and the whole thing gets incredibly tangled). But basically reality is not concrete and is just a set of illusions and relationships that are inherently fragile. Wake up (or realize it for what it is) and a dream ends.

The two opposites could be nothing but Anu and Padomay, chaos and order mixing to create the universe, or Aurbis. Actually, although this is getting in rather deep, his prior paragraph mentioned the actions of Talos and Zurin Arctus, who acted in a sort of cosmic theater, imitating the interplay of Anu and Padomay. The following quote seems to disparage interplay, and the divine relationship of the Emperor and other gods as well. If that's at all intelligible, I just realized it myself.

Thanks again Paws! It's quite mind boggling still but I'll read up on Talos and Arctus and see if it helps me understand. I have just read "et'Ada, Eight Aedra, Eat the Dreamer" in order to try and understand why the flea/wolf qoute is a heresy but I've got to admit that I'm stumped. If I understand what you're saying, Paws, it's that the prophet feels that the interplay between Talos and Zurin Arctus (which mimics divine) is the heresy?

:P
Oh boy, that's an unfortunate coincidence of terms. The story of interplay between Talos, Zurin and Wulfharth is what's known as the Arcturian Heresy. (There's a book of the same name, read it.) However, as far as I can see, the prophet subscribes to this so-called heresy and believes in its significance. (And no wonder, since so many people speculate that the Prophet is just an avatar of Tiber Septim, who is a two-headed king, multiple people at once.)

If the quote is seen as disparaging this divine relationship, it is insulting to Talos (not to mention Akatosh and Shezarr/Lorkhan, who are related in the same way) and is tantamount to turning one's back on the cosmic strength of the Empire and its faith. Hence the chiding of the prophet.

But I'm assuming that you know some things and trying not to get into others. Not sure if I'm being too vague.

To be honest I know very little. I didn't realise that Tiber Septim was more than one person, and was a little shocked to read that his actions involving the Numidium were less than saintly (killing Arctus and covering it up). I'm also unsure as to what version of events is the more accurate, Arcturian Heresy or Rise of Tiber Septim.

Ok so lets see if I'm on the right track now: The flea/wolf qoute is from a book called "et'Ada, Eight Aedra, Eat the Dreamer". In this book the author is having a pop at the belief in the Arcturian Heresey. The "holy hermit of Anvil" is having a pop at this same author (and at people who share this belief) for not believing the Arcturian Heresey. Close?

It's really starting to confuse me now. The book is implying that Zurin Arctus and Tiber Septim are the same person and that the Underking is the enemy.

For some reason that speech makes perfect sense to me... :nerd:

I think understanding the context of Et'd Ada, Eight Daedra would be helpful. This is basically a magical message recovered from a Moth Priest who has just zero-summed. He reached reverse enlightenment and realized that because one plus negative one equals zero, he does not exist. Poof. Evaporation. This is the sort of thing that quote is talking about. Keep dreaming and refuse to see the truth, or you'll disappear. And don't listen to the musical translation of that document, or you'll end up the same way.

Just why the prophet doesn't like this idea, I can't really be sure. It's technically true, so maybe he just finds the attitude distasteful. It's rather in the same vein as saying "What's the point of doing anything, life is pointless because you're going to die in the end." It is true that you're going to die, and it is not possible to refute this with concrete reasonining and absolute terms, but most everyone would object to the message.

Et'Ada, Eight Daedra also can be seen as diminishing Talos by pointing out that he is just a play-actor mimicking the patterns of Akatosh and Lorkhan, but the Emperor knew damn well what he was doing, or he wasn't so clever after all, so that doesn't make much sense. It may just be that the Prophet is calling out against the apathy of the common people in addition to the apathy brought on by musing over the realities of Nirn's metaphysics. Shut up, honor your ancestors (they got it right) and save the world.

(I didn't realize the origin of the quote until you pointed it out, hehe.)

And as far as Arcturian Heresy vs Orthodoxy (Rise of Tiber Septim is a fan article and I'm not sure which way it's bias lies) there is no correct version of the story. The Heresy diminishes Zurin Arctus and calls his persuasive story a cover-up. He is the Underking but not the first. It introduces the role of Wulfharth, the reincarnating Nordic king and avatar of Shor, and suggests that he was the main player. It is certain at this point that his heart powered the Mantella, since that's the only way it would be a substitute to the Heart of Lorkhan. Howeve, the other details of the story are a Battle of Red Mountain sort of deal. We can't know if Daggerfall's Underking was undead Zurin, Zurin possessed by Wulfharth, or some mix of the two. The man who became Emperor was Hjalti Early-Beard, a Nord or Breton from High Rock, Cuhlecain's general who may or may not have had the Thu-um. He was a soldier and a schemer.

If the thread does not come to the Lore forum, the Lore forum will come to the thread.

About the Serpent:



The Thief, the Warrior and the Wizard are the three Gaurdian constellations. They protect their charges -the other constellations- against the Serpent. In Redgaurd, the serpent was depicted as a void in the sky that obscured or ate the stars.

The constellations are mentioned in http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/ffoulke_firmament.shtml, http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/warrior_charge.shtml and http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/cosmology.shtml. The http://www.imperial-library.info/astro/ section holds the images from Redgaurds constellations.

There is also a relation to Lorkhan and the serpent but I'll leave that out for now because it's not readily related to the doom of the world. You're bound to come across that someday.

You might also want to play through the character generation in Arena to see more star and destiny related mysticism.

PPITM:

You noticed the Prophet called Arctus, The Arctus? He treats him as if he was the other half of Talos. It's an indirect reference to a similair relation between Lorkhan and Akatosh in the head of Pelinal.

I think he considers the assertion in a wolf of naught a heresy because Pelinal wouldn't hear of such god-logic. Understandably ofcourse because while the whole universe is insane, the trick is to say "I screw it all and go for ME". From there on you can lead it back to the apathy of the people.

the unfeathered and breaking of gates my guess is means the comeing of umaril ( sometimes reffered to as umaril the ufneathered i think... ) and the breaking of gates reffering the oblivion gates is my best guess...

I'll add that I think it is counterproductive to connect the Talos/Arctus line to the Interplay line.

He brings up Talos and Arctus becoming one to fortify the empire to draw a parrallel to how the Divine Crusader must bring the pieces of Pelinal together and become one to defeat Umaril and fortify the empire once more. On a tangential note I don't really see this part of the speach as backing up the Arcturian Heresy book.

The rejection of the "Interplay line" shows his distaste for the general apathy of the citizens of the empire. They can not see the trouble that comes, nor do they seem to want to do anything about it.

I think that perhaps I now understand a little better, Paws. Perhaps the prophet considers the realization of zero-summing a heresy because, whilst it is true, it defeats the divine purpose/accident for life. I will still have to read the two Talos and Arctus stories again to fully understand Tiber's nature, though.

Nazz, I think the interplay relationship was my error, adding to the confusion with my ignorance. I think the qoute refers to Akatosh and Lorkhan, not Talos and Arctus. However, because Talos mimmicked Akatosh and Lorkhan, it could also apply.

Proweler, thanks for the links! I'm still no nearer understanding the relationship between the divine Mara and The Ritual constellation than I was when we first met, but I still enjoy trying to understand the stars. Which begs a related question: What is happening in the heavens during OB's main quest and KotN storyline to make the prophet reference the serpent defeating the guardians?

Unless the the threat of the Serpent originates from Oblivion, it may just be the general way in which the [censored] hits the fan. Or the Wheel, which works just as well.

The relations between the gods plane(t)s and the constellations are Julianos - the Mage, Arkay - the Thief and Akatosh - the Warrior.

I don't believe there is a relation between Mara and the Ritual.



The prophet is being slightly metaphorical. The Serpent tries to eat eat the stars but the Gaurdian constellations prevented that. Now hat the guardians (the Emperor, the Dragon Fires) have fallen the serpent (the Daedra) can freely eat all the stars (take over Mundus) and bring darkness.

Now I'm with you. What is it with this game and all the damn meataphores?! Basically, the prophet is saying "as below, so above". In theory, in defeating Dagon by Martin joining his blood with the power of the amulet, he has not only sorted out the world but the heavens aswell. For a short time at least.

To take that idea a step further, the prophet says that the "Nine need a champion", that they are powerless to act without a mortal to fight their corner. So a Champion of Cyrodil/Divine Crusader is the only way that the gods can directly help the world. Once this champion has done his thing in the mortal world, it also rights whatever problems the gods are facing. What would have happened had the chosen champion failed? Would another be appointed or is the chosen one really the only hope?

Wonderful thread The High Elf! It seems you catch on pretty fast to the nature of the 'metaphysics' of it.

There is one thing I noticed you mention: I do have a comment on the interpretations here but first to a Prophet the future/s may be the present. He may see several possible futures as equally true and real - so prophetic language can and often does present posiibilities as done deals. That is one of the pitfalls that interpreters of prophesies frequently fall into.

I reckon that you guys have tied this quite closely and firmly to the Oblivion events

However It also appears that there is an alarming tendency in the Main Series of ES for Towers to lose their power sources and it appears that the towers are the spokes of the forementioned Wheel. That would make your quote a 'win the battle but lose the war' job because the real point of the battle was not the closing of the Gates, but rather the removal of yet another tower from having real effect in the Wheel equation.



And here's some very loose thinking re the Serpent
Heh - the snake is the trickiest birthsign - consider that reptiles start naked, and only later do they gain feathers. and most creatures have something of th ereptile woven into their brainstructure.

There's historically the feathered serpent Quetzacoattle who apparently demanded tens of thousands of human sacrifices if you are looking for parallels ooc - and that makes me think of Khajiit ... and the other Tamriellian continent where there are Po-Tang Monkey people, Tiger-people trying to become Dragons, and Snake people who have already visited Tamriel and provided an Emperor, etc ...

Makes me wonder at what stage therefore gamesas is going to jump over there? If they are I would expect obscure parallels in Mythology and so forth to start up as well as re-interpretations of old Lore.

There again the prophet is so strongly focussed on the Oblivion events and is one of many trials for the Rise of the Usurper in Valenwood.

Anyways, happy lorifying

He'd reload his game and try again. Didn't Pelinal Strike you as a powergamer? People used to kill everything and everybody once in a while as if they had gone mad and then reload.

The metaphors are fun, their power isn't in what they reveal but what they obscure.

You say I catch on pretty quick but I promise you I don't. Take the Towers you mention; I have seen them crop up in many lore threads as they seem essential to the whole ES series. However, I actually know nothing about them (although I'm thinking that they are the first structures created where the gods would meet?), espescially how they might relate to the prophet's speech. Are you saying that the wheel of creation has guardian towers, like the wheel of the stars has guardian birthsigns?



Lol, yeah, not only was he a power-gamer, the player controlling him was a known loony
The metaphores are fun, I do enjoy finding hidden meaning within hidden meaning (or trying to at least!)

The content of the Prophet's Speech, along with the probable time-frame of the events narrated in the Knights of the Nine, may suggest that what Martin did to hault Mehrunes Dagon's assault on Tamriel was ultimately insufficient in preventing the unfolding of various inauspicious portents, or perhaps even served to precipitate them.

Two questions come to mind: Is this true? And, if so, why?