i hope its gone too. when exploring, you didnt really have to look around. you could just look at the stupid compass and it would tell you where the dungeons were at.

well ye, it was good in the way of telling you whether you were heading north/south/west/east i agree. thats what a compass should be like in a way, i hope you can obtain a normal compass in skyrim but without the additional dungeons/quest markers (that was ridiculous).

Here's hoping. Though i think they can put the "magic compass" on the compass menu, so that when you press to enter any other menu you see the magic arrow. Still better than having it visible all the time though.

I really don't see any problems with ditching the compass, even for people who love/need the had holding that oblivion had. I don't think it is unreasonable at all to completely do away with onscreen quest markers, but simply have them on your map. The way GI described it, flicking to the map sounds quite easy, a button press and simple gsture, no multple clicks or buttons presses to hop across numerous tabs. So for those who need to be directed every step of the way, an incredibly easily accessible map with a quest marker sounds almost as helpful (read: coddling) as Oblivion's onscreen quest markers, they can pop open their map every few seconds to check their route, plus it unclutters the screen making for prettier, more immersive gamplay. Another possibility would be to have the compass pop up on the bottom, along with quest pointers whenever you're paused in the map screen, or even any menu screen, such as inventory.
For the people rallying around the hands off approch of Morrowind, trumpeting a desire for realism, then I think on-map quest markers outght to be a reasonable concession. I mean come on, say you're lost out in the back country, you're trying to find the next town, if you come across a nice old lady in a cabin in the woods, wouldn't you rather have her mark the location of the town on your map rather than writing down a convoluted set of directions about taking a left after the small clump of trees and a right at the boulder in the shape of Uriel Septim (Note: do not eat the candy that the nice old lady's house is made out of either, just get your directions and leave... fast.)? I can very easily imagine that after months of wandering around in the wilderness, my map (if i had one) would proabably be covered with hasty scrawlings and little notes about the locations i'd passed, or seen. I would be sure to note the remote cottage to which i had to return after playing messenger-boy and running to the next town, It would sure svck if I forgot to head back there and pick up the spare change and candy that old lady had promised me for my help with her errand.
Personally I think it would be WAY cool if your map automatically accumulated notes about the places you visited or notable quests that you'd done at particular places, or even make notes about the habitants of caves that you had explored, just so that, you know, you can be sure to pack some fire scrolls before taking on that horde or vampires next time. It would also be neat if you could make your own map markers, for example "awsome vista: come back for screenshots" or "unmarked cottage" or "secret underwater entrance to wizard's lair."
As for "what direction am i facing?" let me tell you first-hand that when you are tromping through the woods along an unmarked trail (ex: an eye trail) or simply blazing your own to a hidden spring, you never ever walk along with your compass held out in front of you with your nose to the needle. You just trip and fall and break your face, or worse, your compass. When you're orientering, you pause, check your map, your compass, get your bearings, plan your route, then proceed to hike towards your desitnation. With a super-easy to access map, it should be no sweat to determine which way you are facing as long as you haven't loaded some stupid mod that messed up your on-map location icon (why would you do a stupid thing like that?).
If you're just dying for some constant on-screen indicator of direction, perhaps someone will make a mod that gracefully adds an unobtruive compass to the game. I'm not sure when the compass was invented in earth history, but perhaps we could suspend belied and say that handheld compasses exist in the Elder Scrolls universe. Perhaps you could equip it in a weapon slot and actually hold it out in in front of you (note; it requires an acrobatics skill of 40 so as to not trip and fall and break your face (read: permanent 20% blindness, can't be cured)). Maybe it could even have some backstory, like maybe some clever wizard discovered this rock that stuck to metal objects and fashioned it into a device that reliably told you your direction. It became very popular after people's innate sense of direction inexplicably vanished along with this strange object that was projected in front of each person's field of vision that indicated magnetic north (it is said that the Hero or Burma, ordained by the gods to stop the oblivion crisis, was able to focus his energy and determine the direction of the single thing he most wanted at any time from anywhere in the world! Can you imagine that!?)
As far as removing other HUD elements, I won't want to see a removal of targeting pippers. Particularly if damage is location-based i need some way to precisely aim my strikes. As far as health, I doubt we'll see the regenerating health now becoming so popular in FPS games. I would be ok with onscreen effects (blood, color/contrast shifts, stc) to indicate the status of my character, but they can't obstruct my vision significatly, even if my character is suddenly crippled and unable to run or swing his sword. I like the idea of "slowed-down time" or some other visual/gameplay effect that kinda gives you a slight little advantage as you near the final moments of your life, when your adrenaline is gushing and ever fiber of your being is bent on survival. A subtle indicator of enemy health is needed, i think more than just thir behavior. If i'm a sneaky sniper, I want to be damn sure that my target is near death before i approch with my dagger to finish him off instead of wasting more arrows. The ring indicator used in oblivion was fairly good and mostly unobtrusive when in first person, but when in third person, with no targeting pipper, it just looked awful.


TLDR versoin: quite you're damn whining, Skyrim's going to be great. Not perfect, but great.

They probably function really well since they can discus the directions, and have them mark the place on your map if the quest giver is not a [censored] monkey who apparently knows the way, but not the location. Now imagine if you could only get one set of directions which can't be discussed and vague at that.

It is not challenging to follow directions, however it would be if you need to get to a store, and your directions were "go left at the building and follow the road, when you see a boat you're there" You couldn't ask directions from someone else, you can't discus the directions with the quest giver, and when you follow the road it quickly turns into a T-section, with no boat in sight.

This is the whole point why Morrowind quest finding is fake challenge, it's a trivial task turned hard because of inadequate directions, and inabilities to communicate.

It's like if I asked you to run a 100 feet, and then when you begin I cut both of your feet off. It's still a trivial task, and the solutions is still obvious.



The dwemer cube isn't that bad because at least you know you're in the right dungeon, but it illustrates how the challenge of such quests is left completely to luck. Interweb looking is so immersive for the gaming experience. :facepalm:



Get it into your head that following directions isn't the problem.

This fake challenge was one of the things that I loved about the Morrowind.

You love the quests but want to start at the place right away, I love the quest and the challenge of finding the way to where the quest happens and the joy of stumbling on nice surprises in hand-placed in the middle and totally getting side tracked into some other quests or dungeon delving that do not have any connection with the first quest, and so on...

If it's not in, and the directions given are suitably detailed (and written down in our inventory somewhere - I'm rubbish at remembering things like this), then I'll be happy :happy:

Obviously the easy answer to this is you just need to be curious and easily distracted. A better answer is that by taking the compass and quest maker off the main HUD, but keeping it easily accessible, it is removed from the player's immediate surroundings and conciousness. Thus, when you do run across a cool location in your travels you won't have a constant reminder that you are in fact, not supposed to be there, and are on this other mission at a different location. Making the map and quest markers easily accessible at any time (read my previous http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/user/380192-shadow-stryker/page__f__118) still allows the player to closely follow the location of their destination or target.

Additionally, on a related note (and as i forgot to mention in my long post), I am wholeheartedly in favor of occasional quests in where you are given no quest markers are and tasked to search an find your objectives all on your own. These of course would be implemented to fit the quest story. Beth had a few of these in oblivion, but they seemed to get a much better handle on it in Fallout.

my guess is that health will b lik a lot of other temporary games that don't display it. Someone abov mentioned Red Dead Redemption. Perhaps your screen will be affcted as you take damage, I founf that much more immersive than glancing down at a health bar.

We can't quite say yet, but fast travel is still here.

If they've designed it well then landmarks and roads will be our guides.. Which works really well. If however you get in an area that all looks the same it's going to be pretty hard. I'm sure there will be some clue as to which way your traveling. And it very well could be that it's an option that is toggled on and off.

@DCDeacon Hey Mr. Hines! Could you please tell me if HUD-free will be optional? Thanks!

@VladSerb Dunno. TBD I suppose.

(Not sure how to link tweets - just scroll down a bit)

Yeah. It wasn't hard to follow directions at all unless...well let's just leave it at that. Pfff.

So, you argue against the inclusion of an on-screen compass because it spoils your "immersion," (and because of the chance it hasn't been invented in Tamriel yet), but have no problems with a targeting reticule to assist in aiming...or random idiots magically knowing exactly where places are in the world in relation to a paper map...or notes automatically appearing on said map as you visit them...

Then, again, I guess you know best, since you seem to possess the gift of clairvoyance and already know how awesome Skyrim is.

Indeed. Not having a quest compass can be good, if they dont make it frustratingly hard(like, you end up spending half the day looking for something that turned out to just be behind a rock next to you, or bad quest information making you wander around for ages looking).
Some games that does pull this off bad is extremly frustrating. But if done well and not too hard, it can be a improvement. Oblivion was a bit too easy/simple at times.

wow, what got your colon in a twist?

I was weighing in on the discussion and giving my interpretation of what i think the map/compass/hud system will be based on the information put out so far, and then describing some ideas and hopes i had for features in the game.

If you've got a problem with people stating their opinion then i will happily report you to the mods for a +1 on your warn status. How about instead if urinating all over other people's posts you form some of your own ideas and share them.

I can't read walls of text (separate the paragraphs next time), however making a statement like that is just as bad as someone who keeps saying 'Skyrim will flop no matter what'.

For the record, I hope it will be a good game.

Maybe just like in real life, if you have no compass, you look at the sky to find your way. People long ago use the stars in the sky to find their way.

Do you think this would require you to actually learn the constellations above Nirn? It's a cool idea... maybe if the sky is clear (can't see the stars if it's cloudy!) you could get a temporary compass indicator after looking at the stars, good for quicking getting your bearings.


How about "pretty good" would that be better than "great?" I just tossed that on because i knew most people would just skip a wall of text. then again, i guess it's better than reading it all and then spewing vitriol at people who clearly took effort and time to form and write well worded opinions.

Can we agree on "I can't wait to see how it is!"?

I can't wait to see how it is!

Whatever system they employ it's required for a new player, that's never touched a TES game before Skyrim, to find things and do the quests with little frustration. Alot of people will rent the game first before buying. If all that happens is frustration during those few days it's unlikely they will drop down the $50-60 for their own copy.

Although lacking the details I really don't think Bethesda will do anything that will even slightly risk their bottom line. If the old Oblivion/Fallout compass does go away the replacement will (and there will be one) be just as effective and maybe even easier to use. Sorry to be blunt but Bethesda really can't afford to cater to the hardcoe purest. Just too much money on the line for that.

I hope not. If I'm taking a lot of damage and on the verge of dying, the last thing I need is for my screen to be blurry and/or covered in blood.

But it wasn't challenging, that is the point, it was just time consuming. I didn't give a crap about anything I stumbled upon because why would I? I'm not exploring, I'm actively searching for something, mean I'm gonna filter out anything unrelated to the information I've been given. I can go exploring when I want to do that, and don't have a quest to do. I don't get sidetracked if I can help it, at best I make a mental note, but other than that, I'm not gonna stray from the path that the quest giver explains, so it really get's annoying when I then find out that the path he explains isn't adequate. Because now I have to search for it, I was looking forward to solving the quest and I'm stuck just trying find it. I've done what has been said I should do, and I'm still not where I'm supposed to be, this means I have to start anolyze the info I've been given, like some sort of code, because the quest giver went brain dead when I tried to anolyze it with him before going out into the wilderness, the kind of thing you would normally do.

So let's say I anolyze the quest info, I throw away the inadequate directions, and see what else I got, we get a name of the place, a general area in which the place resides, and a characteristic of the place "cave" "mine", whatever. If I don't even have these things, he can consider himself dead. Now I search the area for anything related to the name or characteristic. The time consumption of this process is entirely based on luck, and the enjoyment of that quest, and subsequent reward is slowly diminishing as the Reward/Work ratio starts going towards zero the more time I waste.

This is already not fun, because I'm just going from place to place, searching for a name and a characteristic. But worse than that, because this is the best solution there is to the current problem, meaning there's no challenge, just waste of time, there's no feeling of progression. It's a trivial task requiring no more thought than looking for groceries in the super market, and in there I can at least ask directions on the fly.

And I'm not even at the quest yet! Which is where the meat of the fun lies, which is where the challenge is, with different solutions, and ways of addressing the problem, strategies, where you can feel yourself making progress.

The challenge should be in the quests, not in finding the quests.

me too. i agree

Rinse and repeat.