So Khajiit do not pass physical characteristics to their children. This is what I was getting at and why I was asserting that physical evolution/adaption would be impossible for the species. It would also account for why you don't see the more bestial Khajiit around anywhere. It is odd though, cuz you'd think there would be at least a few unwanted pregnancies culminating in the presence of other subspecies around. Personally, as I've posited in a previous thread, I'd like a tiger looking Khajiit.

You're the one who assumed my tone to be antagonistic. I'm just going on easily available lore and common sense. If you just want to say "oh, it's magic" then fine. If you're going to speak of lore or what not then talk of lore. I had assumed you switched to discussing the whole 'morphology' angle which has Khajiit physical characteristics being derived from the moon and not their parents. If that is not your position then just state your idea.

My only reason for even taking a contradictory standpoint is that I do not wish for TES to turn into a "well I guess this works" deal where they just make Khajiit in snowy areas have white fur 'just because'. In my opinion it reduces the world to a petty mirror of the real world.

So Khajiit do not pass physical characteristics to their children.

So Khajiit do not pass physical characteristics to their children. This is what I was getting at and why I was asserting that physical evolution/adaption would be impossible for the species. It would also account for why you don't see the more bestial Khajiit around anywhere. It is odd though, cuz you'd think there would be at least a few unwanted pregnancies culminating in the presence of other subspecies around. Personally, as I've posited in a previous thread, I'd like a tiger looking Khajiit.

You were telling me what was right and wrong in your first post. Not what you thought was right and wrong. I've already explained why it makes sense and there is no reason why it couldn't be in Skyrim. Nowhere does it say that the Lunar Cycle of the Khajiit prevents environmental adaptation to the body. It doesn't matter what subspecies they are, they should still be able to change depending on where they reside.

No problem but it's worth mentioning that whether the NPC in the screenshot being assassinated is or isn't a Dunmer is still up for debate.

khajiit probably have reprodutory schedules based on the moon cycles and what type of sub-race is needed for a particular task, at least i would do it that way. it seems like a sure fire way to control the race phenotype at will and with it a great advantage over environmental obstacles.

"want a particular kind of khajiit for this region? no problem, we can postpone our intercourse schedule to next week"

I think its a dunmer... who else have skin like that?

I think its a dunmer... who else have skin like that?

Micro evolution and adaptations are certainly viable and most likely do happen.

Could be a goblin. They looked similar to that in OB.

Its just rigorously enforced mating seasons I think. I do believe that genes are passed on and that all Khajiit, no matter what the sub species, share most genes. Since all Khajiit kittens start out the same size, then grow into their advlt form fast, we can see how two Alfiqs could physically give birth to a Ohmes-raht for example. I still think genes would be passed on to this Ohmes-raht, but thats because a good majority of the genes are shared anyway. Similar to Chimps and Humans.

You were telling me what was right and wrong in your first post. Not what you thought was right and wrong. I've already explained why it makes sense and there is no reason why it couldn't be in Skyrim. Nowhere does it say that the Lunar Cycle of the Khajiit prevents environmental adaptation to the body. It doesn't matter what subspecies they are, they should still be able to change depending on where they reside.

Is that speculation or a fact? Link?

I assume that all Khajiit share genes and that the genes that make them different are mutated by the moon upon birth. Chimps evolved into humans through over millions of years of evolution without a great portion of their genes being hijacked by some lunar magic. Considering physical properties are contingent on the moon (size, physiology, etc), it seems illogical to assume that any physical traits could be passed from parent to child. Whether or not the color of the Khajiit is dependent on the moon is anyone's guess but it would seem improbable that the morphology would change the majority of a Khajiit's form but leave it's color untouched.



Obviously it is what I 'think' is right and wrong. Need I add a disclaimer to every comment with "this is my perception"? Personally, I found your explanation unsatisfactory. Adaption and micro-evolution take a great amount of time, especially for something like discoloration (even more especially for an intelligent species). Also, it doesn't seem logical for a species to adapt or evolve at all considering every child is essentially recreated according to lunar cycles.



Technically speculation derived from lore. If a Khajiit's physical form is dependent on a lunar cycle then it is highly improbably for it to retain characteristics from it's parents. If it's parents are two short cats who walk on two legs and the child is a gigantic cat that walks on all fours it seems highly unlikely that it would share the fur color or eye color of the parents. This is the argument in the absence of any lore that talks about morphology and coloration. If there is some lore that says that some sub-species of Khajiit necessarily have a certain color or pattern of fur it would be much more conclusive. As it is though, evidence suggests that adaption/microevolution does not occur with Khajiit considering their physical form is based on magic.

Obviously it is what I 'think' is right and wrong. Need I add a disclaimer to every comment with "this is my perception"? Personally, I found your explanation unsatisfactory.

Altmer should generally be taller than most other races, and their skin should have a golden tint. It would be great if many of them had the proud and snobbish attitude from Morrowind. Their faces should be a bit gaunt, and the other elven faces as well.

Bosmer should be short, and less silly than in Morrowind or Oblivion. I like OP's idea about goat eyes, but the black eyes from Morrowind would be fine as well. They need to look more unique.

Dunmer should be pretty much the same style they were in Morrowind. I'd like them to be a bit harsh, like in Morrowind. I don't like the idea about sharp teeth. The way dunmer differ from other elves in appearance is their skin color and their red eyes, and in some cases their face tattoos.

Orsimer... or Orcs, should not look like the pigs they were in Oblivion. I'd prefer something like in http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs50/i/2009/337/9/8/Half_orc_portrait_by_LolloBoloz.jpg Their skin should also be a little darker. I don't like OP's idea of horns.

Argonians could look like a mix of the creatures in these two pictures (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rodragon_gallery/94118.jpg, http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs44/f/2009/145/e/6/Dragonborn_fighter_by_Lileth.jpg)
Also, I don't see why female argonians shouldn't have boobs, like any other of the races. It's not like Tamriel is the real world, these are magical creatures, their origin is the Hist and that's a [censored] tree. :bonk: Do we even have any lore telling how the Argonian reproduction system works?

Khajiit... not much to add except for these (http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/286/9/4/weretiger_by_koutanagamori-d30nyog.jpg, http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/312/a/7/wereleopard_by_koutanagamori-d32f28a.jpg). These are perfect khajiit designs.
There are also several other khajiit breeds that would be cool to have in addition to these, like the Ohmes-raht... they look like a mix of elf and cat.

Bretons could maybe look a tiny little bit elven in their facial structure, but not really very much different from imperials.

Imperials are... well, they are your standard white human race. Would be great if they showed influences from roman culture, like in Morrowind... it would make them more exciting.

Redguards should look like normal black people.

Nords should look like imperials, but generally larger than the other man races. Some of them could also use face paint, like in Morrowind.

Adaption and micro-evolution take a great amount of time, especially for something like discoloration. Also, it doesn't seem logical for a species to adapt or evolve at all considering every child is essentially recreated according to lunar cycles.

Technically speculation derived from lore.

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Win

I assume that all Khajiit share genes and that the genes that make them different are mutated by the moon upon birth. Chimps evolved into humans through over millions of years of evolution without a great portion of their genes being hijacked by some lunar magic. Considering physical properties are contingent on the moon (size, physiology, etc), it seems illogical to assume that any physical traits could be passed from parent to child. Whether or not the color of the Khajiit is dependent on the moon is anyone's guess but it would seem improbable that the morphology would change the majority of a Khajiit's form but leave it's color untouched.

What don't you understand about "Mundus is not Earth"?

Case closed.

Your getting too hung up on the chimp/human example. Im saying that all Khajiits share a huge, similar gene pool that contains all morphs and subspecies. The only thing differing, is a few genes. Enough difference to make each sub species unique, but not enough for the parents genes to not have an impact on their offspring.

Case closed how? The case is closed in that my idea actually has theoretical and logical backing while yours is complete fabrication? I was never trying to be inflammatory in this debate. I just initially wished to express that it is a bit silly to say a highly intelligent race would evolve incredibly unnecessary traits in a relatively short timespan. My assertion was that is alright as long as they explain it rather than just leaving the player to have to make jumps in logic to accommodate the change. If it is just an aesthetic change, I can deal with that; Graphics change and allow for better models and textures to be used. If they are actually trying to make something dubiously natural related to lore they should explain it.

So you're saying that fur color is a gene separate from any other genes? Technically possible but highly unlikely. Why would the genes have redundant subgroups for height, weight, width, physiology, hair lenght, facial structure, but not hair color? And if hair color is redundant in those subgroups then adaption/evolution of hair color would be incredibly less possible than it regularly is. Suppose a Khajiit mutates to have white hair, then that white hair would only exist on the gene for certain subgroups, it is highly unlikely that the child will be of the subspecies which is carrying the mutated gene. Arguably it's impossible for this to happen anyway because then all of the subspecies would evolve on their own into completely different subspecies. A Khajiit of the common form in Cyrodiil might be 3 times larger and walk on four legs somewhere else even though born to the same moon phase.

Where did I say anything about hair color? I just said that genes are shared, but since all genes contain all forms of khajiit (IMO), it doesnt really matter whats passed on etc. the only truly unique Khajiit is the Mane, which must be an extremely recessive trait.

I think Sinister Raven's nailed it. There are a host of magical, and certainly mythic and metaphysical influences that could be taken into account, but unless such an influence is at least mentioned, it seems most reasonable to assume that nature is nature, gravity is gravity, and so on despite the obviously fantastical setting.

That's obvious, but in the absence of any lore explanation of evolutionary methods it is most logical to use Earth's as a substitute. Technically the only difference is that Mundus has magic. Unless the magic actually changes evolution (in the way that it changes the evolution of Khajiit :goodjob: ) then evolution would be the same as it is on Earth. Essentially you are just saying "w/e, I'll believe anything they put in the game because it's magic". So if the next game is set in space with dunmer and khajiit killing off a whole new species together with their laser gun equipped armies you'd have nothing to say but "I guess it makes sense cuz it's all magic". That's fine, if you want to just give them artistic liberty to change around the world illogically and without explanation then that is alright. Personally I don't want that but that's where opinion comes in.

Adaptation is the evolutionary process whereby a population becomes better suited to its habitat. This process takes place over many generations, and is one of the basic phenomena of biology.

The term adaptation may also refer to a feature which is especially important for an organism's survival. For example, the adaptation of horses' teeth to the grinding of grass, or their ability to run fast and escape predators. Such adaptations are produced in a variable population by the better suited forms reproducing more successfully, that is, by natural selection. All adaptations help organisms survive in their ecological niches. Structural adaptations are physical features of an organism (shape, body covering, armament; and also the internal organization).

It's better to think of the time frame in terms of the reproduction time of the individual. The environment selects those alleles (the variations of a gene) that are most fit by killing off individuals with poorer alleles. That means those individuals don't reproduce, so their alleles are taken out of the next generation's gene pool. If this happens enough times, the frequency of the poorer allele drops, so that the species (or population, which is just a portion of the species that lives in a different place than other populations) adapts.

New traits involves mutations, since they are the ultimate source of new variation. Mutation rates are more or less constant for each species (and even domains), so that must also be factored into the time frame along with the reproduction time.

All this adds up to is that adaptation time varies greatly among species. Bacteria, which multiply rapidly, can adapt (in terms of allele frequency) much faster than elephants, since elephants have a longer reproduction time.

Case closed how? The case is closed in that my idea actually has theoretical and logical backing while yours is complete fabrication?

Chimps evolved into humans through over millions of years of evolution

Khajiit genes can mutate, therefore they can adapt, evolve.

You just said there were no unique khajiit besides Mane. Which is it? Also how would they adapt/evolve when they have have numerous redundant genes? It would be like finding a needle in a haystack for the offspring to actually be the same subspecies as the mutated genes EACH generation. Also note that as intelligent beings the Khajiit would have no need for physical evolution to assist against predators in the way that fur coloration does. The evidence is completely stacked against the idea that Khajiit can adapt/evolve. Like I said, if they could then in certain areas a Khajiit subspecies could have evolved to be completely different from a subspecies of the same lunar cycle in other geographies.

That's obvious, but in the absence of any lore explanation of evolutionary methods it is most logical to use Earth's as a substitute.

How long does adaptation take?

Ok, since we know NOTHING about what kind of Khajiit inhabit Skyrim, this could mean anything including the possibility that a subspecies lived there since the age of Arena. Consider that there is hundreds of years difference between Arena and Skyrim. Small adaptions such as differently colored/thicker fur, would be quite acceptable.

It's the other way around, sorry. My evidence is factual. Yours is worthless speculation. Try again.