The radiant AI in Oblivion

Post » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:53 pm

wait a second, TES V 2012 possible release date, the fear over the end of the world at 2012, skynet, it all makes sense :ooo:

Thats just what they want you to think. :ninja:

It isn't smoke and mirrors.

A little bit. Beth is a pretty good magician, with better performances.
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Jessica Phoenix
 
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Post » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:26 pm

"1. One character was given a rake and the goal “rake leaves”; another was given a broom and the goal “sweep paths,” and this worked smoothly. Then they swapped the items, so that the raker was given a broom and the sweeper was given the rake. In the end, one of them killed the other so he could get the proper item.

No respect for the law. The devs are anarchists.

But seriously, a tyranical government is missing in Tamriel.
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Amy Masters
 
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Post » Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:54 pm

:wavey:
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marina
 
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Post » Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:12 pm

It's. Still. Just. Scripting.

To be fair, with that definition, there actually is no AI in the world. AI is but an idea of someone that somehow managed to manifest itself inside others' brains

That is because everything within computer science are made of lines of code, and since you can call a bunch of codes a script, everything are scripted, and as such, there is no AI
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KIng James
 
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Post » Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:11 pm

To be fair, with that definition, there actually is no AI in the world. AI is but an idea of someone that somehow managed to manifest itself inside others' brains

That is because everything within computer science are made of lines of code, and since you can call a bunch of codes a script, everything are scripted, and as such, there is no AI


My guess is that the main difference between AI scripting and Radiant AI scripting is that Radiant AI can learn to develop its scripts, that the actual components of the engine will 'learn' and develop to what it learns. At least that's how I understood it.
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Captian Caveman
 
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Post » Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:26 am

Just found this interview on google that mentions instances where the radiant AI went horribly wrong - thought it might provide an interesting read to those who hadn't already read it -

"1. One character was given a rake and the goal “rake leaves”; another was given a broom and the goal “sweep paths,” and this worked smoothly. Then they swapped the items, so that the raker was given a broom and the sweeper was given the rake. In the end, one of them killed the other so he could get the proper item.
2. In another test, a minotaur was given a task of protecting a unicorn. However, the Minotaur repeatedly tried to kill the unicorn because he was set to be an aggressive creature.
3. In one Dark Brotherhood quest, the player can meet up with a shady merchant who sells skooma, an in-game drug. During testing, the NPC would be dead when the player got to him. The reason was that NPCs from the local skooma den were trying to get their fix, did not have any money, and so were killing the merchant to get it.
4. While testing to confirm that the physics models for a magical item known as the “Skull of Corruption,” which creates an evil copy of the character/monster it is used on, were working properly, a tester dropped the item on the ground. An NPC immediately picked it up and used it on the player character, creating a copy of him that proceeded to kill every NPC in sight.
5. In one test, after a guard became hungry and left his post in search of food, the other guards followed to arrest him. The town people looted the town shops, due to lack of guards.
Bethesda worked to fix these issues, balancing an NPC’s needs against his penchant for destruction so that the game world still functions in a usable fashion. In-game there are over 1,000 different NPCs, not including randomly spawned monsters and bandits. The result is that the AI in the release version is much reduced, only featuring NPC schedules."


i would have killed to see those ingame. especially the looting one.
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Dustin Brown
 
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Post » Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:11 am

Just found this interview on google that mentions instances where the radiant AI went horribly wrong - thought it might provide an interesting read to those who hadn't already read it -

"1. One character was given a rake and the goal “rake leaves”; another was given a broom and the goal “sweep paths,” and this worked smoothly. Then they swapped the items, so that the raker was given a broom and the sweeper was given the rake. In the end, one of them killed the other so he could get the proper item.
2. In another test, a minotaur was given a task of protecting a unicorn. However, the Minotaur repeatedly tried to kill the unicorn because he was set to be an aggressive creature.
3. In one Dark Brotherhood quest, the player can meet up with a shady merchant who sells skooma, an in-game drug. During testing, the NPC would be dead when the player got to him. The reason was that NPCs from the local skooma den were trying to get their fix, did not have any money, and so were killing the merchant to get it.
4. While testing to confirm that the physics models for a magical item known as the “Skull of Corruption,” which creates an evil copy of the character/monster it is used on, were working properly, a tester dropped the item on the ground. An NPC immediately picked it up and used it on the player character, creating a copy of him that proceeded to kill every NPC in sight.
5. In one test, after a guard became hungry and left his post in search of food, the other guards followed to arrest him. The town people looted the town shops, due to lack of guards.
Bethesda worked to fix these issues, balancing an NPC’s needs against his penchant for destruction so that the game world still functions in a usable fashion. In-game there are over 1,000 different NPCs, not including randomly spawned monsters and bandits. The result is that the AI in the release version is much reduced, only featuring NPC schedules."


If this had actually been the case, all of those incidents could easily have been fixed by raising (or adding) a threshold level that prevents the relative priority of a "law abiding" character's "task" from exceeding that of murder (or theft, in most cases). It should be "fixable". The fact that it was dropped or never implemented leads me to believe that these were "scripted" test cases of very specific "goals" and routines set up between two specific test NPCs, not random incidents out of a larger crowd of NPCs, and which turned out to be nearly impossible to link together into an "overall" or more universally applicable NPC AI package.

If you've only got two NPCs, and you set things up so that NPC #1 is told to do a task which involves getting an item carried by NPC #2, then you've got to set up routines for that first AI to search for the item, determine if it's in the posession of another NPC, and if so, do something about it. If it's given a further list of options, in case that item is in the posession of another NPC, to either: (1) ask for it, (2) steal it, or (3) kill for it, and no reason to choose one over the other, why would you be surprised if NPC #1 kills #2 for the item? I'd call the test case "working so far, but not finished". The task is going according to the options provided; the only problem is that the list has no priorities or "threshold" checks included to prevent the less desirable action from occurring. The example also doesn't give any information about whether there were any "backup" options in case the overall task or at least the one option proved impossible.

One way or another, it's all "scripting", but in a multi-layered and interconnected web that would be a nightmare to test and debug. Calling it "Radiant AI" is just a fancy label to put on the box, so you can say "WE have Radiant AI and you don't", until next year when everyone's got it listed on the box.
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joeK
 
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Post » Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:19 pm

why do you guys keep talking about fixing those issues. i would love to see some of those in the game. the romans executed guards that went off post or fell asleep. why wouldnt the imperial legion. if you went to a bank and saw the bank guards walk across the street to get something to eat wouldnt you grab as much money out of the vault as you could. kids today are shot over shoes and coats, so why wouldnt they kill each other over gardening tools. maybe it was an LA Rakers Rake.
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NEGRO
 
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Post » Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:05 am

My guess is that the main difference between AI scripting and Radiant AI scripting is that Radiant AI can learn to develop its scripts, that the actual components of the engine will 'learn' and develop to what it learns. At least that's how I understood it.

The way I understand it is that "Radiant" AI advertised for Oblivion will consider their surroundings and check if they have anything to do with their goal and do something with them. For example, the "poor marksman and thus not accurate" ad, the AI can know that it does the shooting thing poorly

One problem with "Poor Marksman and then grab a potion" advertisemant is that even with 1 point of Marksman, game-mechanic wise I'll be just as accurate as a Master would, so how come in the ad with low marksman skill the AI shoots arrows poorly?
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Shannon Lockwood
 
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Post » Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:39 am

The way I understand it is that "Radiant" AI advertised for Oblivion will consider their surroundings and check if they have anything to do with their goal and do something with them. For example, the "poor marksman and thus not accurate" ad, the AI can know that it does the shooting thing poorly

One problem with "Poor Marksman and then grab a potion" advertisemant is that even with 1 point of Marksman, game-mechanic wise I'll be just as accurate as a Master would, so how come in the ad with low marksman skill the AI shoots arrows poorly?


Might have been a super-duper potion of marksmanship :celebration:
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Janine Rose
 
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