I thought about Father being a psychopath or sociopath. It's plausible and it fits with almost everything we know about him. The only thing I don't then understand is why he didn't leave his remaining parent to die in the Vault. Or, if he did have an inkling of the feats of which they might be capable, why he didn't just have them killed to eliminate a potential threat. I don't see why a psychopath would care enough to save them at all. Normally, the assumption could be that there was some sort of Norman Bates psycho-sixual obsession to drive the decision. In this case though, Sean never knew his parents, so they make an unlikely target for obsession.

That said, it's as good an explanation as most I've come across. Personally, I think I'm tending towards the player-as-synth theory, but there's nothing in-game to support that.

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Of course, there is the question of why the player's DNA was special. We're told the Institute needed uncontaminated DNA for the Gen 3s, but there was a full vault of the stuff. All they needed to do was crack open a coffin at random an take a few cell scrapings. Or thaw out Old Man Neuberg and explain that he could live in relative luxury in exchange for his co-operation or he could beg for water in an irradiated hell. I bet there'd have been plenty of volunteers.

If the player's DNA had some particular mutation to it then that would explain Kellogg's otherwise needless brutality and PsychoShawn's desire to test his parent. But I suspect that most players would be uncomfortable with the idea of the PC as being some sort of latent ubermensch from the word go.

All in all, I think I prefer my initial assessment: It makes no sense at all.

Regarding FEV and Synth Production,

Synthetics are based on Humans, but the way Their Internal Organs work are based on the results of the FEV Experimentation conducted by the Institute on "Volunteers" taken from, used, and released onto the Surface Population.

Shaun himself says why he does it when talking to him on the CIT ruins after the Battle for Bunker Hill.

"I supposed I wanted to see what would happen."

Psychopath he may be, but he's still an old man, and he's still dying (and knows he is by that point). He's simply curious, as psychopaths don't lose that particular trait. So he turns it into an experiment, because he just can't stop manipulating and controlling people -- it's too second nature at this point for him. So he sets up Kellogg to be stuck in Fort Hagen for a bit and waits and watches. Even after killing Kellogg, Father doesn't approach the Survivor or try to contact them in any way, waiting for them to figure their own way into the Institute.

A test, if you will, to see if the Survivor was even worth having near them.

These sound exactly like the types of games and manipulations I'd expect from a psychopath. Doing all of this simply because he can, and he has the power to do so.

As for the people in Vault 111 -- They were ordered suffocated in their cryopods by a previous Director of the Institute. During the Kellogg memory version of the scene, if you interact with the scientists, Kellogg explicitly states 'I didn't know why the old man didn't just re-freeze them... guess he felt there'd be too many loose ends...' Not even Kellogg had planned to go that far (killing everyone) and had only killed the Survivor's spouse when they struggled -- being willing to let them get refrozen assuming they had no trouble taking the child. The "backup" was in case they needed a source of more DNA and they wanted one related to their original source to make further research easier.

They wanted the infant first because their DNA was as close to baseline as possible. With even as little day to day exposure to the pre-war world as possible. The exact reason they needed an infant is somewhat handwaved, but I imagine it's the same sort of reasoning that researchers prefer stem cells in the real world -- easier to work with and manipulate.

In the end, they didn't need the backup, as Shaun was obviously more than sufficient. Plus they were obviously able to harvest what they needed without harming him as he seems to have been relatively healthy until cancer affected him.

"A test, if you will, to see if the Survivor was even worth having near them."

I suppose my problem is that I don't understand why the Single Parent engaged his attention at all. As director of the institute he must have had access to many, many toys for his amusemant. Why spend all that time and effort on someone with whom he has no personal involvement? And having decided to do so, why set up a deathmatch fight that, by any reasonable anolysis should be a sure fire win for Kellogg. What outcome could he have possibly expected except the speedy and bloody death of his mother?

"These sound exactly like the types of games and manipulations I'd expect from a psychopath. Doing all of this simply because he can, and he has the power to do so."

I take your point but ... even psychopaths actions make sense in their own frame of reference. I can't see any way this makes sense in terms of the information we have.

"They wanted the infant first because their DNA was as close to baseline as possible. With even as little day to day exposure to the pre-war world as possible. The exact reason they needed an infant is somewhat handwaved, but I imagine it's the same sort of reasoning that researchers prefer stem cells in the real world -- easier to work with and manipulate."

That would explain why they needed an infant I suppose. I remember that line as saying they needed DNA uncontaminated by radiation (I'm not sure what "baseline" means, otherwise), but OK, let's say that they needed an infant and that lil'Shawnee was the only one in the vault. That explains why they picked on that family and why, but how in damnation does it make the PC a "backup"? It's not as if his DNA has been retroactively reset to baseline by the act of procreation.

I do wonder if Beth aren't planning a Lonsesome Road style DLC where they explain some of this stuff. I've got mixed feelings about that, if so.

If you're searching for why, the best answer I can give you is because Shaun became a dying old man. All through his advlt life, he never got his remaining parent de-thawed. Not when he had agency as an advlt, nor when he attained power as the Director.

There are plenty of people, I imagine, on gaining the power to do so would immediately de-thaw their parent and re-unite themselves with said person. Trying to rebuild the bond that time and distance had thinned.

Instead, Shaun knew exactly where his parent was and what had happened to the other his entire advlt life, and did nothing about it. That's because he didn't care, not even a little bit. They were unimportant to the goals he had set for himself and the life he desired for himself.

Only when he found out he was dying did he starting thinking 'what if?'. Not from his conscience plaguing him, but as the natural line of thought that anyone starts having as they near end of life. What if I done XYZ different? What if my choices had been ABC instead? Note that he is spending the final days/weeks/months of his life cementing his legacy. Guaranteeing that he is seen as the 'Father' of the Institute now and going forward after his death. Everything he does and he asks you to do is towards this goal.

All because he sees his death coming and wants to make sure his future is the one that lay ahead of the Institute and the Commonwealth. Who better to guard his legacy than his remaining parent? Assuming they can prove to him they're worthy by killing Kellogg and finding a way in.

And if that parent is willing to assassinate Desdemona and willing to shoot down the Prydwen, that parent might just have a little of Shaun's personality in them, which is why he's more than content with handing them the reins.

"If you're searching for why, the best answer I can give you is because Shaun became a dying old man."


To be honest, I think I'm happy with "it makes no sense at all". Which isn't to say it isn't an interesting discussion, of course.

"All because he sees his death coming and wants to make sure his future is the one that lay ahead of the Institute and the Commonwealth. Who better to guard his legacy than his remaining parent?"


In which case, why would he assume that the Single Parent (of whom he has no personal experience) would be better aligned with his aims than a member of Institute who he had known for decades and whose goals were compatible with his own? All he can possibly have to go on would be military service records or case records, assuming he has any data at all about his parents goals and beliefs.


"And if that parent is willing to assassinate Desdemona and willing to shoot down the Prydwen, that parent might just have a little of Shaun's personality in them, which is why he's more than content with handing them the reins."


On the other hand, he does exactly the same thing if your only faction contact has been Paladin Danse whom you told to shove it. At least that's how it went down with me. I had done some settlement clearing for Preston "I'll mark it on your map" Garvey, and he could have been following my progress. So he might have had an idea of how tough I'd become.


Even so, he does seem to imply that the Single Parent was revived with the intention of testing them against Kellogg. As in the plan to stage the fight was already made while the player was still frozen solid. Try as I might, I can't see any way he could reasonably have anticipated his mother having the sort of combat potential needed to win that fight. Not at that stage in the planning, anyway.

Nothing to disprove that either, though.

Apart from the "My baby! My baby!" part, the story was good enough. Nothing special, but it worked. And seeing all the endings, i think Railroad's was the best.

Personally, at this point, I think it's easier to say 'well, he's a psychopath, and ultimately that's his "why"'.

There are going to be some things that he does or did that have the reason of 'because he could'. Setting up the parent vs Kellogg (and it's not a far stretch that his father might've had a chance as a war veteran) is just one of those things.

'Because he could'.

The player is another experiment of "father" in my view. He is a scientists who believes everything can be resolved with science. So having another genpool very likely as himself is a expirement he couldn't simply ignore and he needed a sucessor.

Is he a psychopath sure. But his action are completly logic as inhuman as he is.

OP: Very interesting post with some good insights, and pointing out what worked and didn't work. I haven't beaten the game yet, so I can't say much on the last part of your post. However, I do want to say that I very much agree with your thoughts on Kellogg. Once I completed the Memory Den quest and interacted with all memories, I began to feel a bit sad that I even had to kill Kellogg in the first place; sad that his life turned out the way it did. Grew up with an abusive Raider (or was it Gunner?) father, then had his wife and child murdered... He certainly was the least 1-dimensional antagonist in the game so far.

RIP and thanks for the awesome .44.

I want to agree with this, but if you hadn't progressed the Institute's story line, would this be clear? I originally rejected the Institute immediately, because I felt no affinity for him. When I got the scene where he was dying, he blamed me for it, as I took him as being injured from one of my attacks. I guess you're meant to find out more information.

Ironically, I think Father is of the most robotic characters in the game, and Danse is one of the most human.

Many of Father's creations ended up being more human than him.

It's only by exploring the Institute do you truly plumb the depths his psychopathy and malevolence.

Even then, just the initial conversation with him the first time I played the game was completely off putting for me as well. By the end I was going, as a player, 'what the heck are you, you sick twerp?'

Well, from that point of view it's like I said at the start: he's a high functioning nutjob and it doesn't really do to dig much deeper than that.



I suppose it's the logic that I feel is missing. I'm sure the logic exists, but we're never party to it.

Thinking about it: in fiction, we tend to get two classes of psychopath: the Jasons and the Hannibals. The Jasons are always essentially cardboard cut-outs. We never get inside their heads becuase the narrative isn't about them; it's about the people trying to survive their actions. In that case "because he's a psychopath works well". For the second class of psychopath, the Hannibals, you have an altogether more rational and socialised psycho. Their personality and motivation tend to be central to the plot. In these case there's always a point where the reader/viewer/whatever gets inside the madman's head and sees the plans have unfold with cold clinical precision and perfect logic given the dreadfully warped values of the character.

Father is definitely a "hannibal", but we don't get inside his head. There's no moment of horror when you reaslise just what a monster you've been supporting all this time. No terminal entries explaning the impetus for the scheme. (Or they may be and I've not found them - I try not to be completist about these things). I can see why they might have done it like that - Beth want to leave the player free to imagine the Institute as the good guys, and providing a smoking gun for Father's malice would undermine that considerably.

But without that insight, the character seems pallid and unsatisfying.

I think I'll stick to "high functioning nutjob" after all.


Yeah, I felt sorry for him as well. I think this was the point where I stopped hating the character I'd been given. The urgency to find the child was abated by the sight of young Shawn (ok - so he was a synth - I didn't know that at the time) and I'd stopped hating Kelogg and I finally felt like I could play the game the way I enjoy playing these games.



True enough.

I'm someone who joined all the factions. And to be honest, there are clear ups and downs in each of them.

By understanding each of them, I see that there's no real enemy here.

Everyone is crossing each other. Even the Railroad don't really like the idea of Minutemen, which again, I can see the reason why.

Minutemen is the most simple faction. They only aim for one: "rebuild the world together". Many players hate, but I can see why they have less interesting mission.

This what makes this game unique and have RPG aspect on what kind of person you wanna be. You can agree from the 4 types of ideology or maybe you wanna choose the 5th by destroying the Institute as something that all factions hate. You still can even be the bastard and kill everyone on sight and not resolving anything.

Yeah. He's definitely the "Hannibal" type of psychopath.

In my first, blind playthrough I think I had two moments of dawning horror. The first was University Point and going through all the terminals one by one (using Cait to make sure even the Master locks got opened). I am staring at a butcher's bill that's cost the Commonwealth a huge settlement and when I finally get the lab open to find the laser rifle, my response was... THIS IS IT? ALL THAT KILLING FOR THIS?

It didn't help that less than 30 minutes iRL later I teleported into the Institute and met Father for the first time.

Only because I didn't know what else to say I agreed to at least look around the place. I found the FEV lab for Virgil and then went through it and read all the terminal entries and listened to the holotapes... That 'moment of true horror' when you realize exactly how depraved and evil the villain is is when I read those terminal entries that described how the most likely fate of most of the kidnapped people (those replaced by synths) was that they'd been turned into supermutants and then released onto the Commonwealth. Tagged and tracked, able to be watched and studied, and allowed to rampage, murder, and cannibalize at will.

Wasn't hard to choose my allegiance at that point. They had reached a point where I considered them the same as the Enclave from FO2 and 3.

Personally, I've always found Shaun likable when speaking to him. He might be a psychopath, but if nothing else, the bit with synth-Shaun at the end doesn't seem to match that.

He's pleasant enough to talk to, certainly. But you'd expect nothing else from a socialised psychopath.


The problem is: if he has anything resembling normal compassion and empathy, why in the world would he thaw out his mother only to arrange a death-match between his her and Kellogg? One that, by any rational anolysis, his mother was surely going to lose? (It's slightly less perposterous if you play the guy, but we know it makes no difference to his reasoning)


As I see if there are only a few possibilities:

1. He's as mad as a box of frogs. Psychopath explains the lack of empathy and the casual cruelty displayed


2. The player is (unknowingly) a synth. Father doesn't think you're human, at least not at the start and hence the "experiment".


3. The plot makes no sense at all, or...


4. Some combination of the above.

The little Shawn synth at the end is a puzzler, I admit. I agreed to take him fully expecting to find that the next time we saw him, he'd have brutally murdered Tinker Tom and be talking in Father's voice. I think I was half fearing and half hoping it would happen.

I have a different view of it.

The very existence of synth-Shaun speaks of absolutely colossal narcissism on behalf of Father, IMO. Giving him to the Survivor at the end is a way to sort of cheat death a little. All while serving as an example of him being 'God/Father' one last time. Only he has the power to remake that 'family' and only he has the power to bestow a child on the childless. One last power trip from Shaun.

I absolutely do not believe a word of what he says about his motivations on either of the holotapes he can potentially give the child synth.

This might sound weird, but my point of view on the matter is that A. he wanted you to experience the Commonwealth for yourself because he was convinced you'd come to his own conclusions independently, without needing to be raised by the Institute, and B. was confident that you'd defeat Kellogg. I'm not quite sure why he thought the second, but he definitely did; even Kellogg thinks so.

Eh, it's power that I can live with.

I'll go a step further and say I find him relatable.

However, I do fully agree with this assessment.

The only emotional connection Shaun has to his family is through blood. He doesn't know or remember his father or mother, so literally the only thing that makes you, as a human being, important to him, is that biological relation. You are, in a way, a part of him, and of course so is synth Shaun, to an even greater degree, as the synth child shares both his genes and 'mind' in some way. So that's why he cares.

He wants to remain in charge of his life's legacy, so he arranges for both you and synth Shaun to remain and continue it after he passes on, but he knows the synth child and doesn't know you, hence his little Wasteland experiment. Since Shaun believes the surface world to be corrupted beyond repair, and knows little of the world pre-war, he wants to see whether you would resemble the kind of people who inhabit the Commonwealth or gravitate naturally towards his preferred outlook of disdain towards it. I also think he was honest about Kellogg - he despised the man and wanted to give both you and himself a chance for revenge. I played a male character so the whole arrangement didn't feel too off, and I suspect the fact that it does with a female pc is simply Bethesda not thinking through the effects that making her a lawyer would have on the logic of the story.

In any case, like I said, I feel that I can understand his intent and mindset pretty well, and don't believe it to be particularly 'psychopathic'. I might just have done something similar in his place.

I liked the railroad ending, I got to roast and irradiate marshmallows on a burning hole in the ground. The radiation gives it that extra kick that makes your tongue fall off lol

He probably thought you'd beat Kellogg because 'they're related to me so must be AWESOME', which is narcissistic in itself.

As for the latter statement -- Eh, that's something others may not be as accepting of.

It's up to them how they treat it, just as it is for you.

I must admit, I find vanity works as a motive for Father. For all his charm, there's an arrogance there that's never very far from the surface.

His vanity leads him to assume that only his own blood can possibly take his place, and his basic lack of empathy means he has to test you first.

I wonder what his Plan B was, in the event that Kellogg won.

Probably just to pick whichever current Division head most agreed with his vision of the Institute's future. Someone like Ayo or Holdren.

Excellent read.. Thank you for it.

I hated finding "daddy" in Fallout 3, and I don't like finding "son" any better. It makes me wonder if the writers at Bethesda have completely lost all sense of imagination.

What is next? "Finding sister/brother/grandma/aunt"...eye roll..

I never destroyed Megaton, it's the only city in the game so I can't speak on that..Maybe if there had been more cities..-shrug-

I hated the MinuteMen..

Ok You've known me five minutes and yet you put me in charge of your club? I am the General and yet it is you that is ordering me around?

I started over so I could leave Preston and his band of weirdos in Concord. Yes I killed the deathclaw and the raiders,, I even prepared Sanctuary in case they wandered over.

NO I am not going to get them.. Preston walking past me giving me 4 or 5 quests in a row is just ludicrous. And so is the "Father" when you meet him.. Obviously brain washed and no longer your son at all.

Might as well do something else.. Ignore that part of the game entirely.

Laughable is the fact that the Paladin at the BOS is standing there waiting for me to arrive after I have told him NO.

As if no time has passed, when in fact it has been months..

Again after knowing me five minutes promotes me to the rank of Knight immediately..

I'm loosing interest in this game fast.. Spiraling down..

Thanks for the read.. I enjoyed it..