And what difference is that going to make? In Oblivion I never got any sort of recognition for being a Spellsword, it was just a style of play that had no other ramification other than the way I engaged an enemy. That won't change at all, except for the fact that I won't be able to max out my abilities any more, but will be limited by the perk choices I make during a game. That's a good thing as far as I'm concerned. In my last play through, I was only level 14 but I was already getting close to maxing out a number of my attributes. How does that make for good character development?

And Bel, it doesn't make for good character developement, actually agreeing with you :thumbsup: but as far as people going on about classes not much changed....







How is my argument invalid? if anything you just reaffirmed my post....level 1 attributes, beat MQ and all guilds...how were attributes restrictive..

I find this discussion rather silly.

Fact is that the people saying having to worry about number crunching breaks immersion or takes away from the game obviously never played the games the right way, and if they did, then they were too concerned about the difficulty of the game and took it as meaning that you need to number crunch to survive.

Truly the only time a player (in Morrowind and Oblivion) really needed to number crunch and basically abandon all thoughts of immersion were either when A) you set the difficulty to its highest levels and wanted to succeed throughout the game, B)you wanted to create a character that could complete everything in the game(s), or C) you were trying to create a character that was virtually devoid of any roleplaying purposes anyway.

Honestly, removing attributes and a lot of the other features that existed in past games (excepting the Daggerfall > Morrowind transition, which was an entirely different problem altogether) is not streamlining. Its lazy game developing that goes the route of removal versus the route of repair. "Screw it if the arm is all messed up but can be fixed, remove it!" is a good example of the general line of thinking here. Attributes could have easily been made to have a greater impact on gameplay and despite what many have said attributes (at least in Morrowind) did have a lot of impact on the game. The only thing was that you did not see it. Much of it was passive, and for good reason. Real life physical/mental attributes do not always manifest themselves in such an active way that its obvious to everyone. And for those that do they can easily be translated into a game.

Fix the system so you can only add 1 point to an attribute every few levels. The maximum points you can add is then limited to a function of your level. People then choose how they want to enhance their character instead of chasing attributes.

Not really. Even if everything was in the same menu, I'd still want them to have some tangible game effect. And between skills and perks, I just don't see them having that much of a role. They'd just end up being even more redundant than they were in Oblivion.

Exactly. :chaos:

Torment is different than most D&D based games. You are playing a specific character, an immortal that cannot die due to common injury, ~basically a bit like Highlander immortals.
Your stats are all nines at the start, but you can improve them at will initially (with points to distribute), and you can raise any stat by one a few times during the game upon leveling, and by other means.

But the point is that stat increases are commitments, and you cannot get them all maxed.

A D&D or Fallout clone in other words. Why not try a different approach instead?

So if we both were mage types and had the same perks and skills for spells for the same level and same tank bars, but you happened to invest more of your intelligence attribute than I did, I would say you have a tangible affect in the game because for the same spells you used would do a little more damage then mine would.

And we can say for the sake of RP. I invested in say, endurance, because I wanted a little more melee defense protection since I was a mage. A consequence I would have to live with when I faced you who had more intelligence.

or D) you needed to start the game with a new, uesable character, or E) you were levelling up and trying not to get gimped.

Although some attributes elongate gameplay, i will kind of miss getting my athletics up, honestly i actually liked jumping around on jerall mountains, it did give me something to do. But either way it never really bothered me, i'm not sure if i'm expecting to much, but i have high hopes for Skyrim being the best Elder Scrolls game yet, if not, i will still play it for a really long time. So i think i know Bethesda knows what they're doing, they made some of the best games i've been more than satisfied with.

So you don't mind the Perks like fallout, but don't want character customization like D&D? This is different, and could be better than both combined. Dragon Shouts, flowing conversations and a lot more. There is just 1 piece from perfection.

Just wait.. its all but guaranteed that they reaper via mods...
(and I'm not so sure this wasn't the idea from the start.)

They weren't, they were useless. I never thought Oblivion's attributes restrictive because their effect was rarely felt, and I'm not saying this in a good way.




A pure mage in Morrowind is "virtually devoid of any roleplaying purposes anyway"? And I know they did have impact on the game. Never said it was positive though. And don't say "obviously never played the games the right way" as there shouldn't be a right way. Often you pro-attributes state you can't turn your character in to what you want it to be because of the lack of attributes.



A system like that would be useless. The effect the increase in the attribute would have for the character would be insignificant, therefore redundant.

Perks originated from Fallout?

I just don't see how having more Intelligence makes my spells any more powerful than yours. Either I know it or I don't.

Multipliers would not be useless. If you think so, then put a heavywieght in the ring with a featherweight and tell me their attributes are useless, if one does 10% more damage then the other (at least). BTW they both are highly skilled and obtained the Perk to grab and hold.

I disagree; but also... Redundancy in all forms is generally good in an RPG. It expands the player options, and allows players to form their own play habits, in the way most comfortable to them.

**In Fallout for instance, there were two ways to load a gun... One cost you double the other.

Yeah, you can't max them all out... oh wait, you can...




For the sake of RP? you practiced the exact same skills, achieving the same abilities, yet somehow one got smarter and one got thougher... That's highly logical.



More power to you then, even more for me.


That's not redundancy, that's having different options for a situation that lead to two different results... Redundancy is doing different stuff that would lead to the same result (or very very close to it) as the other stuff already in place. I called it redundant because it didn't have any effect, therefore it's just wasted actions.

I'd much rather have a game where my character progression is an organic process, determined by the way I play the game itself. The fact that the TES games use an "advance by doing" approach makes getting rid of those numbers simply a logical progression to me. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy games like Fallout and D&D where I have to take the time to figure out how my character is going to evolve, but I don't want all my games to be like that. Variety is a good thing.

Someone has played torment and maxed all stats to 25?

Let me come down to reality then. You and I know chemistry; periodic table, bases, acids, element creation. But you are a bit more intelligent then I am with chemistry. So we both make some concotion and go to a science competition. You would probably win.

How are Skills and Perks..more Organic than Attributes...when both involve direct player input...

in a perfect world, Attributes would increase as you preformed certain skills allowing that to translate into other use of Skills....instead of Skyrims....raising H/M/S every level bit...

Here is an different example..

In the Witcher there are recipes to mix potions, and many ingredients have two properties. The witcher (or even the player) that knows how to make use of both properties at once can make stronger potions using the same recipe.

With attributes, you raise skills to increase attributes that increase how much other skills increase and how effective the skills are.
With perks, you raise skills and improve their effectiveness using perks...

Oh look, one has less loops...

@ Gizmo

I was talking about maxing at TES, not Planescape.

Advancing by doing is applaudable in many applications. But there are some where it just would work in cRPG. If I wanted to increase intelligence or strength, I guess there could be books I can read in the game or a gym I can attend in the game. But those will be misused just like people who jumped around all the time to leap tall buildings with no boundaries. So there has to be another mechanism where a conciesce decision must be made for some progression and advance by doing wouldnt make sense. This decision would be based on finite resources, so each decision is measurable and worthwhile.