Sure, it was my fault. I didn't understand what the game wanted me to do, and made mistakes. It doesn't mean that it's something that can't be fixed, though. There's nothing to gain by letting the player fail right off the bat due to being unable to make an informed choice.

And no, it won't be just as possible in Skyrim because you make fewer choices during character creation. You pick your gender, your race, and your looks, then you start playing. No class, no birthsign, no attribute bonuses to worry about. It would be exceedingly difficult to start off with a bad character from that. You start really differentiating yourself as you play, by levelling your skills and perks according to what you're actually doing to progress through the game. This is a much more organic way of making a unique character, because you're able to start off with any skill set being viable, and when you find what helps you level best (or the way you want) the system encourages you to keep levelling that way... instead of pre-selecting a mountain of bonuses that may or may not result in a good character build, and being locked into that until you start becoming master of everything.


Because combat is unavoidable in these games, and a new player may not understand what they need.

Levelling up via non-combat skills, in a game that scales combat difficulty according to your level and all but requires combat, is a problem... so far it doesn't seem like they've solved that yet, but management of a character's abilities, as a whole, has been improved. Theoretically, it's easier to pick up and start playing with a usable character, while still encouraging diverse character builds (more diverse than Oblivion and Morrowind encouraged).

Before, I really didn't care much about the issue, but the OP has made me choose a side in this affair. While I'm usually the one that both supports immersion but saying that doing things purely for immersion's sake is kinda dumb, but this is definitely a different situation. I think it really does help it feel less grindy and gives perks as the new reward for all your hard efforts.

..I'd LIKE intervention in how fast my character moves.........

So now you'll press the Sprint key instead.

It not only will be exceedingly difficult to start off with a "bad" character, but exceedingly difficult to start off with a character who's notable in any way at all, save by height, skin color and the presence or lack of a tail or pointed ears.


Organic? What's organic about ticking a box when the perk fairy visits and waking up with some nifty new bonus ability you didn't have the night before?

This isn't about "organic." It's about eliminating all possible bumps and obstacles on the expressway to Uber City, so that even the most attention-span deprived rage quitter will be guaranteed to reach that destination with the least possible trouble in 20 hours or less. All the rest is just PR and rhetoric.

:
facepalm:

So you've actually played the game in order to determine this then?

Pictures can be deceptive. The little four foot fellow with funny robes could have the strength of an ogre. RPGs need stats for player sake, as well as for game engine use. The statless approach only works for an audience that wants to slip on a costume and be Conan in his finest hour.

I would tend to agree, and hold it as reason to make more party based RPGs. Most FPP RPGs that I've played have the depth of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbecczU7QJ4 outside of conversation.

Could be, but it would surprise me if true.

I'm only here because they bought Fallout, I've no vested interest (or even much anticipation) for Skyrim ~yet. I don't plan to buy it until next year (if I do). :shrug:
But this trend is disturbing.

IMO the reward should be the story, and what you objects can find... At most an occasional perk; any more devalues them IMO.

Fine with me. I'd rather the game start me off with a more generic character and encourage becoming a more unique one as I progress, than to start me off with a very specialized character and encourage becoming a generic one as I progress.


Because the skills you levelled still matter, and (at least some) perks have skill level requirements.

I'm glad attributes are gone because it makes people freak out about it

The Reason I Learned to Not Give a Damn:

I'm an artist who believes that art is something that the artist is allowed to do anyway he wants.

If you make it, it's your art, be it furniture, paintings, drawings, comics, sculptures, books, computer software, or video games.

That means Bethesda is the artist and Skyrim is their art, therefore they can do whatever they want to this game. It's their choice, not some random gamer's.

They felt that Attributes and leveling were done so wrong that leveling and scaling needed to be completely overhauled and that attributes needed to be thrown out.

Personally, the game looks great, and for the sake of trust in one another, I'll buy their game and play it. If I love it, then it's $60 + tax well spent. If I hate it, then I know to rent TES: VI first.

Well said Caustic. To be honest I think this ongoing debate is a little confusing. This place would be nicer if everyone were as positive as you! : )

Either way, it doesn't look like our opinions will change their course. We'll just have to wait and see if that's a good thing.

While I understand the loss of the standard atttibutes is quite a change from past games I just had to roll my eyes at this.

Why? Because you didnt read it? What do displayed stats have to do with attributes in the context of what you quoted? We were talking about a game with no displayed stats.

Only thing I want to know is if encumbrance will be tied to health or stamina increases.

ok ok I read it wrong. I figured in a thread about attributes that's what you were talking about. sheesh

edit: I'd just like to add that no displayed stats doesn't make a game linear at all, even if all our stats were completely hidden it wouldn't be linear, so I still don't agree with it. Of course that wouldn't work with the way attributes were done before, they'd have to level automatically depending on the skills you used because if you can't see them you can't level them manually with the multipliers obviously. Stiill not linear, only difference is you can't see them.

If you had a complex game with no stats, it would be terrible and the first thing people would want is their stats displayed. You could not have a deep TES without displayed stats.

I never said it was a good idea, although I can't say I would care if they still do the same thing. Doesn't make the game linear though.
Actually I think no stats at all would make the game feel even more natural to me if I simply feel my character getting stronger with the stats completely hidden. I hope they hide all stats completely in the next game.

That would never happen. You wouldnt know a damn thing and youd want your stats back. You basically just want to play an action game.

You don't have insider information stating it would never happen and based on what I see now I think it's possible, maybe not probable but possible.
No I wouldn't want them back. You don't speak for me. :rolleyes:
No it's still an rpg and I still want rpgs the only complexity that I would lose is a stat screen. Only stats I need to see are health magicka and fatigue.

You can not have a complex TES with no displayed stats. That would be the worst selling TES ever. The first thing the majority would want was stats and indicators on whats going on back. Health, Magicka and Fatigue are all stats, that would not be displayed in the hypothetical 'no stat TES'.

That is an opinion not a fact, there are far more ways to make a complex rpg than stats. Perhaps alot of would want them but I wouldn't which is what I'm talking about.


Ok then I want almost no stats except for those. They are all I need to see, as long as the rest are still there in the background doing what they do I wouldn't care

It is a fact, since it would be a linear action game and not an RPG. Nobody wants a dumbed down TES, nobody that matters anyway.

Ahh yes the old your opinion makes it "dumbed down" and therefore you don't matter arguement. Again stats are not the only way to make an rpg complex.
How would it be any more linear than before? The only difference is you can't see the numbers. You still get stronger, still level.

Without stats you have no variables, without variables you have no complexity.