http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1187460-the-reason-im-glad-attributes-are-gone/

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1188762-the-reason-im-glad-attributes-are-gone-pt2/
TC1's OP:

ok so when i first heard that attributes were gone i was like WHHHHHHHHHHHHHAT, NO NO NO NO NO NO, why why, ect. but ive been playing through oblivion lately and i understand why now, trying to get tha +5 in each of your skills takes all of your attention , i spent more time training skills then i did playing the game, i spent more time building my character than i did PLAYING THE GAME, i could not become immersed in the game because to make a powerfull character i had to focus on grinding certain skills up, with attributes gone i wont have a reason to grind a bunch of skills (sure ill grind some to a certain skill up, like alteration or something cas i want i higher spell but it wont be " I have to get these 3 skills up 10 levels each ")

im supper excited now for skyrim.. e3 plz come sooner


PEACE
Even after 2 threads we still have our opinions we wish to explain.

Link to the other thread in your OP.

And all games. If all you can do is shooting people, then it is clearly no RPG. You need more than that.


I never said I was against stats. The more stats, the better the simulation is.


Come on. Linear games and open ended games are clearly different. Freedom is not, be all and everything. We need limitations. And Skyrim will achieve this first time in series with 50/280 perks and a level soft cap, at least I hope.


Without freedom, there would be no role(or only one and that would be written by some guy with different morales I had to role play which makes me ask how this is roleplaying exactly.)


Well. Only an idiot would check the exact weight of war hammer and child's strength in 0-100 numbers and coming up with formulas to answer this question. I would let him/her try.

I'm not against variables making the game work, I'm against powergaming, meta-gaming, spreadsheety. Some archaic things holding back the genre in arcade mode.

It has been done. Linking thread 1 in a minute.

You'll have do to better than that. Books simply don't weigh so much that someone who's even reasonably healthy can't lift them. Awhile ago I posted a quote a I found on the Wiki, stating that the average Claymore only weighed 5.5 lbs. A person would have be suffering from some debilitating disease not to be able to at least lift one. And in another example I posted earlier, try putting a weight-lifter in the same ring a skilled light-weight boxer and see who comes out on top. Skill has much more to do with someone's effectiveness with a weapon than sheer brute strength alone. A fencing rapier doesn't weigh very much at all but I know that I would last a very, very short time in a match with someone who actually knew how to use one.

Of course skill to strength is always the better in a one on one comparison with weapons, but no strength at all?

Thats just rediculous.

there's nothing "spreadsheety" about displayed stats. Without them you have a linear game.

This is a perk based rpg. Its different and hopefully rather fun.



The only reason bethesda ever needed to chop an attribute or a skill is because they want to try something different. In this case something very different.

Your complaint is basicaly boiled down to its too different and you dont like it. Well its already done and we will see how mcuh we like it when they polish this bugger up and put a bow on it.

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1188762-the-reason-im-glad-attributes-are-gone-pt2/page__view__findpost__p__17667872
@ Belanos

From what planet then you where is only same cloned peoples live?
There is also natural abilities thats describe human and such abilities is attributes what you develop during childhood to advlthood and what then decrees with old age,
professions can help develop attributes for example weightlifters train to develop their Endurance and Strength but knowing how to lift weight and actual ability to do thats is different things, for be sciencetist need to develop memory by study and good memory attribute will help in your work, but intelligence used not only sciencetist unlike Magicka thats used only by mages.

You believe otherwise? Seriously?

How is anyone defined by their skills alone?

A doctor of neurosurgery who can't act, and can't safely drive a car, but loves improv theater and Nascar racing ~is just another brain surgeon? This fellow is not well liked because he can't inspire confidence in the patients (even though he is very good).
This guy is insecure and studied medicine initially for prestige ~then had a change of heart and began doing pediatric neurosurgery at cost... Just another brain surgeon?

With RPG characters Its not just the skills that define a person, but how they would choose to use them, and/or behave and feel in general. Like two Police officers with identical training, but one is overconfident because he's always been muscular, and the other is vindictive because he was always picked on as a child, and grew up with a (well hidden) mean streak.

People are not defined by their skills.

Um....no this isnt about it being something different Winter, do not simplify people stances as if you are psychic, no ones asking for Oblivions Attribute system back, they're saying instead of axing it and then calling H/M/S and perks attribute replacers, just say they aren't there and give a reason why FIXING them wasn't a better option. attributes and perks do not = redundancy. Attributes are the natural aspect of a character that allows them to function in a world Skills are Augments to that character that diverge them from the average joe and perks are the special abilities and talents a character gains from there skills, Skills don't stand on their own two feet in real life the PERSON has attributes and those effect how well they preform certain skills.

Who said anything about no strength at all? Just because there won't be a number to fixate over doesn't mean it won't actually exist in the game. It will be just another background stat, like the fBarterBuyBase value that exists in Oblivion. Which I'm sure you aren't aware has a value of 300. There are literally hundreds of such values in the game that run in the background, without the player being the slightest bit aware of them.

@Xarnac

I can't even believe that after all that talk about how visual cues made you think too much you still say that people don't want atributes because they DON'T want to think? Hell, a lot of the pro-attribute people here have said that they don't actually think too much about the attributes, so you're argument is invalid. Please stop with the ad hominem, it gets tiring.


Now, it seems we have dug deep into the RPG elitists here. Why on earth do atributes have anything to do with RPGs, or better rephrased, why are attributes the exclusive denominator of RPGs? If you need limitations, perks and skill level act perfectly as limitations. . You're not really roleplaying when you fight things you know you can beat because you checked his stats and compared to yours.

And to those that say "This is how TES is", TES is an ACTION RPG. If you don't like the ACTION in there, I'm sorry for you, but in here skill in moving your character is required, if you don't aim for the right spot, you can have all the stats, perks and attributes you want, you're going to miss.


And for that child with war hammer issue... If you raise the kid's stat to 70, he'll have leveled up quite a lot, been able to pick a couple of perks, increase his stamina, health or possibly mana, and he would be quite good with that weapon. I don't see where this is a problem.
Let me also throw something at you. I'll put the same war hammer in the kids hands, increase his strength to 100 (nothing else), increase his one handed skill to 70, and let him rip. Tell me how that's going t end up.



Yay, you agree with something I agree. Now please tell me where attributes enter game-wise in your little metaphor. Oh, they don't, do they. I see a story I could make for my character, different skill level for different activities, a sudden start in the increase of another skill... nope, no attributes...

Todd never said a thing about Attributes existing under the hood, he said H/M/S and perks replace attributes, which is folly...work with information given not what you think is in.

zetro...Console command/Creation Kit bypass leveling requirements, he did not get any perks...just the skill to use the Warhammer twice his size...a kid...picking up a warhammer twice his/her size....and can kill me with it...me a level 34 hardened badass...mmk

And when you first walk into his office, are you aware of all this? Or do you make assumptions about him strictly based on the fact that he is a doctor? Granted that if you were to get to know him better then those things you mention would come out, but the vast majority of people he comes in contact with will never even reach that point. They'll define him strictly on the basis of him being a doctor.

If the stats are all low and reflect someone other than the player... does that effect the quality of the simulation?

One can clearly roleplay a prisoner shacked to a wall; especially if there is an NPC shackled nearby.

Dude, with the creation kit or the command line I could make a character cast a fireball with such an AoE effect and damage that it would kill every single entity that the hardware was able to calculate. If you're going with an increase in skills, than you have to follow the rules, as I can easily make a ridiculous situation relating to attributes this way.

You apparently dont know how complex games work. You can not have a complex game without displayed stats. Counting the veins on my arm to see how much I can carry is stupid and the reason displayed stats are there. If you did have to count your veins to see your carry capacity, the people complaining about how complex attributes were wouldnt be counting those veins. Since they want to "play and not think".

I would like to know the value is there just like the disposition of animals if you raise your charm spell and disposition high enough.

Its nice to have the stats displayed, helps better define your character and show differences that weren't shown well in Oblivion.

Didn't we go through this? Can you kill Omega? You don't know if you can't see his stats. The numbers you have are still meaningless. And no, even if you remove the whole hud from Morrowind and put GCD, the game wouldn't lose anything from its openness or character progression. WE need more visual cues instead of displayed stats. You realized this before and that TES is going for this direction, am I wrong?

lol Zetro...that Kid picking up a Warhammer twice his size without anything saying he rationally should be able to do that and Killing someone levels above him in game isnt following the rules.

all Im doing, is Making a warhammer with a certain weight make the kid aggro towards me and his skills 70 and see the hilarity that ensues....that hammer should effectively keep him inplace / not allow him to run....but oh wait encumbrence is gone.

It's completely ludicrous to think that strength won't exist in the game in some form. You couldn't left so much as a piece of paper if it didn't exist at all. It's just not going to be some abstract value displayed in a menu somewhere. Same thing with speed, without that there's is no movement at all.

And you still haven't convinced me you have actually tried to think this through before saying my opinion is nothing.

When did I say "counting veins"? You know how I know how much I can carry? I tried to pick up certain stuff and failed... TADAAA, no need for displayed stats. Oh, but you think this might require a bit of thinking, I'm sorry, I do know how much you hate that.

And I want to think! NOT to see a damn spreadsheet saying that THAT is my character.

@Belanos

This is from a previous post on the first thread of this series. In case someone thinks that there has been no mention on how to fix the attributes.


"I do not advocate one over the other, but submit that both would greatly enhance the variety. If 1 attribute was raised every 5 levels, there would not be numbers in the 99-100 range. The attribute number would be more personal as no one attribute could be raised more than 10 times if one chose to raise the same attribute until he/she reached level 50.

An explanation of the multiplier:
If the average strength for all races was 35, that would mean no melee/encumbrance multiplier if you had 35 strength. However if you had a platinum sword and 40 skill rating in sword that caused that total damage to be 100 for example, a 36 in strength would mean that you would get a 1% bonus to that melee combination, so 101 damage. Someone with 34 strength damage would be 99. So those 1% s are significant with multiple hits.

Other attributes would act similarly except for luck/personality which probably should not be included. Every point above average intelligence, 1% bonus to general magic attack. Every point above average willpower, 1% bonus to general magic defense. Every point above average to endurance, 1% bonus to melee defense. Every point above average to speed, 1% bonus to walk/run speed. Every point above average to agility, 1% bonos to projectile damage. I realize that this is probably not going to happen, maybe I enjoy hearing myself type. "

How is it not? It's the same if I added an attribute of Strength to him. SAME effect. He can only kill things if he gotten to lvl 70, and let's face, that would be A LOT of practice. And honestly, if the other guy is "levels above him", let me do the same with attributes. The other dude only had health, intelligence, and willpower. You think the superpowered kid couldn't beat such a wimp?