My initial reaction was "lol, action game". But the more I think about it, the better the idea seems. In fact, I actually like the idea a lot now, for the following reasons.

1. Attributes and character stats in general is a remnant from Pen and Paper RPGs. They needed some interesting mechanism to determine the outcome of battle with the help of dice (it was also a tool to diversify characters).
A lot of the older computer RPGs not only used mechanisms similar to PnP-RPGs, but actually copied PnP-systems. Baldur's Gate 2 used a pretty much perfect copy of a version of the DnD system, right?
The whole idea of real time battle that TES uses in the first place, shows that there are other ways of simulating battles than using a turn based solution. Why not take the dive altogether and leave the PnP-roots completely? As long as the system is complicated enough to force me to make strategic decisions to move forward, I really don' care about the details.

2. Logically, there is absolutely no need to keep track of these numbers given that you have skills. What is going to determine how much stuff I can carry? Before: enter the number for the strength attribute into a mathematical function to calculate an encumbrance.
Now: Enter the level for skills that rely on strength into a mathematical function to calculate an encumbrance. Instead of raising one-handed weapons by ten points, calculate a new number for the strength attribute and then a new encumbrance, just go directly from raising one-handed weapons to encumbrance (and any thing else that may rely on strength). Since the functions have to be 1-1, there is absolutely no structure lost in removing this step.
The same goes for every single skill, since all of the skills are attached to an attribute.
Also, you could have an interdependence of skills, giving rise to a more complex system than before (yeah, I know, low odds of that happening!).

3. Races can be as diverse as before. They can be given a bonus for a few skills (so that they level some skills faster), there could be perks unique to a race (although, I can certainly see a danger in that idea). I remember reading that there is no difference between races other than cosmetic, but I really hope that it will change before release.


I hope I made sense, English is not my native language. =/

i for one am glad that they got rid of the attributes system, to me it never really made much sense; for example speed and athletics make you faster? Why not just one. I do beleive the new system will allow for some pretty mighy pc's

Attributes are gone. That's a huge change too but majority seems to be fine with it. What if skills were gone? :wink_smile:

Choosing perks is still nice though because it is about specialization within a skill. 0 to 100 doesn't represent many things if you think about it. I can only go for daggers in one handed skill and call myself a Master of daggers. The things I can do, my potential is realized in perk trees. I can go to the end on my own choosing. Attributes suggested that we know everything in the world before hand and put ourselves to the exact spot in regarding. There is no surprise in that which we can experience in real world. Am I more intelligent than you? I have an x intelligence number here, what does that mean? Nothing.


I want leveling out since Morrowind(complete hud for that matter). I ask myself what makes Morrowind for me? What are the things I can do and like in Morrowind? Attributes and level number have nothing to do with the things I do in Morrowind. And in Oblivion they just caused more restrictions. I use nGCD for Oblivion for example. The things I ask for differencing NPCs, those are nothing racial differences can't cover. In the end for realism and immersion, I want these things moved out of sight. Yes, I know I want an RP simulation. So don't get me wrong, I want more variables.([creature type mudcrab] with a bunch of AI variables means more than a [mudcrab intelligence 34]) But just to make it a game similar to the likes of table top games, adding spreadsheety is unfair for the work done towards the goal of creating an immersive roleplaying video game.

Sure attributes effected a broad range of skills(redundant) and caused secondary effects (Speed and Encumbrance)...but Perks allow a lot more indepth specialization.

For example, I can now be specialized in axes or daggers....as axe characters can load up DOTS or how daggers aren't worthless anymore with sneakattacks.



If people would look at the actual gameplay implications as stated above, they realize how much better it is.

I was also sick of choosing major skills and leveling them strategically because I wanted +5 in three attributes every level.
Besides, you had maxed out most of the attributes by level 25, so every character became the same in that category. With perks instead of attributes, every character I make will be different at level 25!

Well since devs cannot add improved attributes into game but decide to remove flawed system instead of fixing it I'd like to see how they will found way out from such situation.
We don't have much info about new system and didn't have any player experience how it can work in game, we can only speculate on work of new system.
Is there is somewhere thread or post with congregated info about new RPG mechanics with known details?
We don't have facts thats changes in mechanic was done in completely wrong or flawed way until we can test them.
Well developers most likely will not return to old attributes system, so we need to know more about new system and try adapt to it and wait for release until we can more critically check all details of it, what if under simple shell of H\S\M will be improved cogs of classical attribute system but just hidden from sight and don't represent as number in char list?
From other side if mechanic was streamlined into slasher almost without of any changes from old H\S\M and perks with skills will not have equivalent replacement effects thats will be really horrible but we have more powerful editor now perhaps we can improve new system as we do such things before?

There will be 280 (is thats number is official limit and there will be no changes during development?) perks for 18 skills its 15 perks per skill, but we know thats certain skills will have more perks certain less then 15, perks received from leveling skills (will be there any other ways?)
Number of perks will be static or we can edit old ones and new ones in CS?

3 parameters bars (derived attributes like Health, Fatigue and Magicka) take place of 8 attributes but devs says old attributes was folded into them.
So parameters need actually sublimate mechanic of old attribute system as well derived attributes must be taken in account for perk checks and have all traits of attributes, details like encumbrance limit, magic resistance, magicka regeneration, such details more likely controlled trough global variables thats tied to Parameter values as well such variables can be greatly affected by perks which increase variable beyond of current Parameter limit, such perks thats add visible changes can be added as racial traits or starting advantages&disadvantages.

Race chose will have more significant impact then before,
Interesting how it will be done? Its only cosmetically improvement or races will have more difference in mechanic also?
Does thats give chances to see Multipliers again, for example Altmer will have x1.5 Magicka bonus for all spend on leveling magicka points?

We have blank character from beginning without of any specializations
We have at last three major specializations in game The Warrior The Mage and The Thief paths and don't have any starting options fro beginning career of character?
Thats strange there is must be some starting options to decide way of character development from beginning.
From other side class was part of lore if our character is blank thats does not mean all other actors also blank ones, Classes at last literal description must works for NPC, also they can work as perk templates for easier perk assignment for NPC since manually list 280 perks for all NPC looks strange

Birthsigns was removed to make simpler start for newcomers, since they can make wrong decisions at the beginning and break game for self.
Really doubtful decision since there is many example of mods thats fix underpowered Birthsigns to be more interesting and usable, as well the reason for which they are removed greatly reduces the chances of Starting Traits and Advantages&Disadvantages, since beginners will make even more wrong decisions then taking unpropitious Birthsign for their character I really don't chose between Birthsign was such hard as described by Todd since they have logical descriptions and names, as well there is Load Save Game option and tutorial dungeon.

The great irony in this being that it's multiplayer games that should require IQ tests. :shakehead: Singleplayer games should be a well done art form, and should apply to those that enjoy a certain game's particular style, level of challenge, and complexity. So I would agree, to the extent that Mature-rated games should be "smarter" and more respected, thus requiring a smarter and more respectable fan-base.

I would not agree that all games must fit those qualities, though. There is a time and place for each and every type of game and gamer.

Rule to live by: Do not be so stuck up as to think that everything should be done to appeal to YOUR particular preference, as much as it may be unpleasant to your tastes if it is done otherwise. This applies to videogames as much as anything else.

I agree with the OP. It becomes a grind fest with skill levels just to level up again. Not only that but by eliminating the physical interaction with attributes you spend less time in menus, therefore upping the immersion. It was an excellent idea, now we just have to see how well it was implemented

That's pretty much my feelings on the issue. I won't be missing Attributes much at all. If they didn't have the time to make them an important part of the game play its better to not have them.

Athletics isn't just how fast you move. It's also how long it takes for you to get fatigued, and how long you can hold your breath.

Dragon_Stalker and Darth_Executor, I ask you these:

1. Why do you express the belief that attributes were broken and needed to be fixed as opposed to removed? The attribute system was not broken, it was meaningless. It was a layer of numbers that accomplished nothing that some other layer wasn't already doing. Why do you assume that the system was broken and they avoided fixing it? It seems to me more like the system was not making any contribution, so it was taken out.

2. Why do you express the belief that complexity is better just for the sake of complexity? I can tell you how to get to Walmart the sensible way, or the complex way. Either way you get to Walmart. Which will you choose? Please explain how attributes actually contributed something to the game that would justify actually keeping them? Don't assume that removing a system makes the game simpler without explaining what simplicity you are referring to. What is it that you feel you will be missing without attributes that you would have had if they were included?

So... Basically you are glad they are gone because they made a mistake while designing it in Oblivion.
Because fixing the attributes/levelling system and making it into a deep, and fun system was such a terrible alternative.

IMO thats what they turned it into though. I don't recall being able to specialize in only sword or axe or dagger or mace in Oblivion.

The perk trees for each skill offer alot more depth and gameplay implications than just making each skill a little stronger(cough attributes).

There's still no explanation as to how "fixing" the attribute system means anything.

It wasn't broken it was useless. It was doing nothing. If you want a new system that does something more deep and complex, then you need to argue for a new system, not for a "fix."

Guess what, Skyrim has a new system.

The point is that you don't need two game mechanisms in place in order to accomplish the same thing that just one can do on it's own. Which is essentially what attributes did, in Oblivion at least.

It's been mentioned that attributes were originally going to be used in Skyrim and that did in fact exist in the game for awhile. So obviously they did try to "fix" it and make it worthwhile but then decided that it just wasn't worth the bother.

This is about Attributes, not perks. I think I'll like the perks too. :thumbsup:



I think they could have done many great things with the Attributes. I don't feel the need to discuss this with you though. I'm pretty sure it will be one of those "Shouting against a wall" scenarios, with you, sir.
I'm lacking time too.

There are two ways they could've fixed attributes.

I. - make it more static, like they wouldn't raise after every level up. That wouldn't happen as it would go against the whole "be whoever you play" thing, as your attributes wouldn't raise when you use them...

II. - make them more relevant, by removing skills. Damage is mainly counted by weapon skill, so if we would remove the weapon skills, damage would mainly counted by strength. Perks would replace remaining skill functions. People would still whine...

I don't really appreciate the way you're just dismissing me when all I'm asking for is some substance. I understand that you don't have time, but I would still like to hear what you have to say when you have the chance. From my perspective on this, attributes weren't accomplishing anything, which means that we didn't need them. That which does nothing is worth nothing.

However your perspective seems to be, to me, that we should keep them and do something with them. All I'm asking for is what, exactly, you think that should be.

I do still think, though, that if you are talking about rebuilding the system from the ground up then, well, that's pretty much what they've already done with the new system in Skyrim.

You're not talking to a wall, try me.

A few others and myself have given ways to improve upon attributes. Its all over this thread (a few pages back) and pretty much every 'attributes' thread.

There's a third option, having attributes affecting skills. But then we'd just end up with a Fallout 3 clone.

Summarizing a few attribute fixes.
Bring them back so that each race/gender has their own set of attributes. Only let player raise 1 stat point of choice every 5 levels. Don't make attributes afffect the 3 tank bars. Instead, make them be negative or positive multipliers to your general melee, general speed, general magic attack, general magic defense. etc..

The only two ideas that I can find in here (from you) are these two:


Like what? You say "more things" but I can't tell what you mean by that. Also, it's easy to find them redundant. Each attribute only made you better at something that you already had a skill for. Agility, for example, affects your total Fatigue, damage dealt by ranged weapons, and your steadiness in combat. That's fine, but why can't you just use the bow skills for that? If you want to be steady, then introduce a steadiness skill or skill perk. Fatigue can be raised by itself. Strength increased damage with melee weapons. Fine, why can't we just use the melee weapons skills? It made no sense that "feather" spells and "fortify strength" spells did the same thing, but one just did it better. That's silly.

What about endurance or intelligence primarily increasing health and magic? Why not just increase health and magic? This is what we mean by redundancy.


Attribute checks in dialogue would be great, but why can't you do the same things with skill checks? In fact, I would wager that skill checks would be more specific to conversation and result in even better dialogue options than an attribute check.

These are the only two proposals that you raised.

***



See this is exactly the problem. If you just want to use attributes as multipliers for skills that you already have, why even have the attribute at all? If you want to increase your "general melee" or "general speed," then just increase the melee skill or speed skill and don't bother with an attribute.

Then again, if you only want to introduce attributes in order to have variety in the races, well that's a completely different problem. The race attributes in Oblivion didn't do that at all, you could raise strength to 100 with a male orc or a female breton and both could lift 500. It had no difference to race.

If you want unique benefits to the races then you need to ask for that. Attributes won't do it, and never have.

theres nothing redundant about them, its the system. They did not do the same thing as the skills did. there was nothing wrong with attributes really, it was level scaling. Put caps on attributes so you cant max them all and they would be fine. Plus those are the only two things I raised in this thread. there's a thousand of these threads Ive posted in. Whole threads dedicated to modding back attributes.

Skills can be nullified. In true RP sense, if I break my sword that I am skilled at and pick up a mace in the wilderness, I would like my melee strength to at least count for something. In another example, a boot Orc with a level 1 skill sword should be able to do more damage than a boot Elf with a level 1 skill sword due to his physical prowess.

I have stated gender differences previously and how attributes are essential for those. I am also thinking outside of Oblivion and am not using Oblivion as beacon of good attribute use.