the reason im glad attributes are gone, : V - Skyrim

» Sun May 02, 2010 1:18 pm

I'm glad that they are taking away attributes. They're just useless skills. :toughninja:

How exactly?

» Sun May 02, 2010 2:44 pm

Then again, if you only want to introduce attributes in order to have variety in the races, well that's a completely different problem. The race attributes in Oblivion didn't do that at all, you could raise strength to 100 with a male orc or a female breton and both could lift 500. It had no difference to race.

If you want unique benefits to the races then you need to ask for that. Attributes won't do it, and never have.

I actually decided to go back and flip through my manuals for Morrowind and Oblivion. Thing is the races already have some variety to them via skill bonuses, as well as certain bonuses like how big the character's mana pool is. Attributes as you pointed out have very little impact from race to race, as it's possible for any race to max out there attributes, some may take a few more levels to max the desired stat but its there. Skills, specifically the major ones, take a lot longer to bring up and or max, so those skill bonuses are going to have a bigger impact on variety in the form of which skills are going the said character is going to master the quickest.

» Sun May 02, 2010 9:06 am

I'm glad that they are taking away attributes. They're just useless skills. :toughninja:

Yep, being fast or strong is useless

» Sun May 02, 2010 8:24 am

ok so when i first heard that attributes were gone i was like WHHHHHHHHHHHHHAT, NO NO NO NO NO NO, why why, ect. but ive been playing through oblivion lately and i understand why now, trying to get tha +5 in each of your skills takes all of your attention , i spent more time training skills then i did playing the game, i spent more time building my character than i did PLAYING THE GAME, i could not become immersed in the game because to make a powerfull character i had to focus on grinding certain skills up, with attributes gone i wont have a reason to grind a bunch of skills (sure ill grind some to a certain skill up, like alteration or something cas i want i higher spell but it wont be " I have to get these 3 skills up 10 levels each ")

im supper excited now for skyrim.. e3 plz come sooner

PEACE

p.s. what do YOU think of the attributes issure (be nice and explain yourself)

grinding has nothing to do with the quality of the system, the only reason that you would want to grind skills to get the +5 to attributes was because the leveling system was broken, not attributes, you had to max out your stats to keep up with the enemies or you played the game with a constant slight disadvantage. but if you are focusing only grinding those skills rather than enjoying the game I would call that user error. its only necessary to improve your stats the more you level up and leveling up was a choice in OB, you didn't have too. so you were choosing to grind rather than to just play the game.

» Sun May 02, 2010 4:15 pm

1. Why do you express the belief that attributes were broken and needed to be fixed as opposed to removed? The attribute system was not broken, it was meaningless. It was a layer of numbers that accomplished nothing that some other layer wasn't already doing. Why do you assume that the system was broken and they avoided fixing it? It seems to me more like the system was not making any contribution, so it was taken out.

Just about every post I see that is negative (as opposed to ambivalent) about the attributes system usually say the oft-repeated "level grinding." This is an argument about poor design and not one about attributes themselves.

The next most common comment is the "redundancy" fallacy. While skills and attributes are similar in nature, they are not the same. Having one without the other creates many voids in game play for those of us that played in ways where we manipulated attributes during gameplay using alchemy and spells. Many people (most, maybe?) probably do not do this so this argument is probably lost on them.

2. Why do you express the belief that complexity is better just for the sake of complexity? I can tell you how to get to Walmart the sensible way, or the complex way. Either way you get to Walmart. Which will you choose?

That depends. Is the quick way down the narrow muddy cart path full of ruts and divits? Do you take the quick way 20 times a week already? Is taking a detour to drive through a windy road a nice alternative some times? Is it really redundant to have more choices available to us? And who the heck wants to limit our choices to driving to Walmart?! :confused:

Please explain how attributes actually contributed something to the game that would justify actually keeping them? Don't assume that removing a system makes the game simpler without explaining what simplicity you are referring to. What is it that you feel you will be missing without attributes that you would have had if they were included

Not having attributes does not necessarily make the game "simpler." It makes character development less complex in some respect (while making it more complex in another). The base character values called attributes could, I repeat, COULD impact any number of game issues from physical balance, to sight, to the rates of renewal for the stat bars, to raw strength, to encumbrance, to jump height, to speed....these are all things attributes can handle very well. It doesn't even have to be an in-your-face list of bars that you manually increase each level. In fact, I'd prefer a more hands-off approach that tics up (or down) behind the scenes (there is even a restoration aspect to having hidden attributes). If BGS took the time to delve into the interactions they could have made a pretty unique character engine that is much more life-like than a lame tech tree and stat bars.

Also, with no attributes we may very well be seeing much more restricted game play than would be possible with attributes. Why are there only 18 skills? Is it because they now need hundreds of perks to cover for what 8 attributes used to do? Is it because having 36 skills would now require a couple hundred more perks on top of what is there where previously you could have added an unlimited number of skills with the same 8 attributes? Oops.... :wink_smile:

» Sun May 02, 2010 11:18 am

The chance to success only bought forth one thing. Save and reload. People complain how you can open every lock in Oblivion, but you could do it too in Morrowind, only you had to do less, just spamming F9. Basically this is my main problem with Morrowind combat, not how hits worked, but how little startegy is needed. I literally attacked somebody head on first, got killed, then reloaded, did it again but this time I won and I was barely hurt. I did the exact same thing, just spamming the attack button.
On the whole magic compass thing... there's a difference between removing "ways of failing" and removing annoyance. Magic compass just made finding landmarks easier. Getting lost is not a failing, you can always get back by following the map, or going to one direction, there's no quest that you can fail by not finding it.

Maybe for powergamers.
But I was never in the habit of saving/ reloading because its, well, boring.

Whats even more boring is no chance of failure whatsoever, and conversely, not being able to do something at all but when I hit an arbitrary number I can suddenly do it withoutfail every time. Lame.
Removing annoyance by adding annoyance in the form of a magic compass. hmm.
Finding landmarks shouldnt have relied on a magic compass at all, but on clear and accurate directions, possibly coupled with 'Here, let me mark it on your map.'
Morrowind was so much more fun wandering around the land, knowing the goal around here somewhere, but where?
You got to see so much more of the gameworld that way, and it felt more alive, more real.
Less made especially for me.

» Sun May 02, 2010 1:52 pm

As for Stats...
They are of paramount importance to any RPG player that seeks to play within the character's limitations ~They are those limitations (and strengths). The idea of "Playing how you feel" and raising what you use is counter to what these traditionalist players are looking for in an RPG (myself included). I won't take an RPG seriously if it doesn't have decent Stats that widely affect the game.

That's part of the problem, your use to seeing them. The reason why a table top rpg like D&D has them is because you need them. The Players and the DM/GM, are the one that has to do all the calculations, and they need those stats to figure out whether or not a dice roll is good or bad. In a computer game those calculations are made for you. However, given that many RPG gamers are the same ones that have weekly D&D sessions, so he or she is use to seeing all those attributes and stats.

The truth is, aside from game based off D&D and the d20 system, you may never be told or know how these stats work exactly. The only thing you know is that higher stats are good, and lower stats are bad. Can you determine just how fast a character moves with a character that has 55 speed vs one with 50? No but 55 is bigger so it's faster, cause the game says so.

This isn't because the devs think your stupid or something, its because there a dozens of hidden variables involved, to the point that trying to calculate something takes a degree in computer science, and even then you not going to be able to keep up with the computer.

I'll give you an example....In D&D factoring how much damage you do is pretty simple, you look at what dice are needed to make a roll, you roll said dice, you add the appropriate modifiers (Strength bonus, enchantment bonus) and boom you got you damage. There maybe some addition factors, such as whether you crit, or this was a sneak attack, or the sword is on fire, but that circumstantial stuff can be sorted out after you roll your damage.

Now let me pull out the oblivion formula for damage so we can compare. WeaponRating * (Fatigue / MaxFatigue + 1) / 2 * SneakMultiplier * PowerAttackMultiplier * OpponentArmorRating * OpponentWeaponResistance

Notice Fatigue determines how much damage you do, so unless you keeping meticulous track of it, your never going to know just exactly how much damage that last swing did, and all that if you can even tell what your opponent armor rating is.

And Fallout 3 is even worse, that damage number they give you isn't even representative of shots fired when using automatic weapons, then there's where you shot them, and chance to crit, and how much bonus damage the crit did, etc, that your never told about in game.

I'm not saying stats are a bad thing, it's nice to have some kind of general idea if whether or not that weapon you just picked up is better or worse then the one your holding. I'm just saying you shouldn't get to attached to them because they really may not tell you much unless your really into crunching numbers or cracking open the game.

» Sun May 02, 2010 2:36 am

That's part of the problem, your use to seeing them.

I disagree; I use them to see. Many D&D cRPGs hide the mechanics (though they are there), some allow the player to see the results if they wish; While I can play most of these games without the information... I always enable it if available; because I like to know what's going on ~what's influencing the events and behavior. In Icewind Dale 2, I wanted to know why the goblins were killing my characters so easily ~and its because they had +29 to strike and to damage (this was in HF mode ~like HC mode in NV).

As mechanics go... Oblivion is terribly simplified. In an RPG I want the stats to list how perceptive my character is; Ideally I would prefer that traps, hidden switches, and certain item details, not even be visible in the game unless my PC makes a successful stat check. The benefit of playing a more perceptive character is that these details would then show up more often.

I want to know what kind of charisma my PC can bring to bear in conversation ~charisma is not simply a positive appearance or look; its behavior... its the difference between Conan and Thundar ~the barbarians. All of the PC's NPC interactions should be heavily influenced by it (and by the character's wisdom and personal acuity ~qualities that can only be defined by one or more stats).

We don't need less stats ~we need more... There is a difference between charisma and (physical) beauty for instance... Right now most RPGs cannot create a characters like (for example...) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWhYpHU02sI... because the simple rules of most RPGs only allow characters to be attractive&socially interesting, or the ugly&socially forgettable.

A great opportunity was missed in Fallout 2, where the PC should have been allowed to take the stage after the comedian left (or was killed); and having a Charisma stat check determine their reception; and possibly adding in any really good jokes they had read (during the game ~in journals & notes). The point being that having very low charisma would make that choice (to hop on stage and attempt to 'wow' the audience) a lot harder (but still not impossible); while the highly charismatic PC could attempt this with utter confidence (but could still fail).
Though it didn't happen, this is fitting with the Fallout series (prior to Fallout 3).

IMO the XP awards should be greater for the PC with the lowest charisma ~low stats are not always bad. In Fallout if your PC was very perceptive then the details of the Master's lair could be mentally damaging to them (but not so if they don't notice things much). In FO2 a low intelligence allowed you to understand Tor's written note, and dialog quite fluently.

The reason why a table top rpg like D&D has them is because you need them.

Damn straight :chaos:

The Players and the DM/GM, are the one that has to do all the calculations, and they need those stats to figure out whether or not a dice roll is good or bad.

No... Stats help to form a mental picture/ an assessment of the PC's character as well as their abilities and limits. I don't need stats in a shooter, but I want stats in an RPG.

... its because there a dozens of hidden variables involved, to the point that trying to calculate something takes a degree in computer science, and even then you not going to be able to keep up with the computer.

This is not the issue or the point. I expect a modern RPG to do all of the calculation automatically, but RPGs should be like... like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0anIyVGeWOI... Where different numbers going in, produce a different result coming out ~Stats should affect the game in a myriad of ways, and each new PC that one makes should generate a different realm of possibilities during play.

I'll give you an example....In D&D factoring how much damage you do is pretty simple, you look at what dice are needed to make a roll, you roll said dice, you add the appropriate modifiers (Strength bonus, enchantment bonus) and boom you got you damage. There maybe some addition factors, such as whether you crit, or this was a sneak attack, or the sword is on fire, but that circumstantial stuff can be sorted out after you roll your damage.

D&D can also account for attacking uphill, and using a overly long weapon in a cramped hallway with low ceilings; I wish TES would.

And Fallout 3 is even worse, that damage number they give you isn't even representative of shots fired when using automatic weapons, then there's where you shot them, and chance to crit, and how much bonus damage the crit did, etc, that your never told about in game.

Fallout never had this problem until FO3.

I'm not saying stats are a bad thing, it's nice to have some kind of general idea if whether or not that weapon you just picked up is better or worse then the one your holding. I'm just saying you shouldn't get to attached to them because they really may not tell you much unless your really into crunching numbers or cracking open the game.

But one has to be attached to them, as they are all that attaches one to the character; its inherent (and intrinsic) to RPGs.

» Sun May 02, 2010 2:29 pm

I completely agree with the op. I'm enthusiastic to play with the new leveling system.

» Sun May 02, 2010 11:29 am

Next thing I know you'll be agreeing with me that attributes are great :tongue:

I have nothing against attributes, they serve an important role in some games. But these titles aren't one of them. Their effect on the game was so marginal, and their relationship with skills so illogical at times, that it might just be better to get rid of them completely rather than develop some overly convoluted system where they might be made to matter. I think with the use of perks to define our characters, there's simply no need for them anymore.

» Sun May 02, 2010 1:57 pm

I am looking forward to seeing what the new system can do. What kinds of characters it leads to and what kind of gameplay it results in.

So no I dont want atributes back I am too interested in what THIS will be like.

» Sun May 02, 2010 5:08 pm

I never had this problem you speak off. I always just used the skills I found natural / the skilsl chosen for my class.. never thought about what attributes they might affect. I think the lack of em is terrible

» Sun May 02, 2010 8:03 am

eventually I want games to have ZERO numbers in them and they will become so organic so engaging that we won't need skills and attributes and all that crap.

so yes no attributes = great idea

makes balancing easier as well.

» Sun May 02, 2010 3:20 pm

i never gave a damn. in bethesda i trust!

» Sun May 02, 2010 9:18 am

eventually I want games to have ZERO numbers in them and they will become so organic so engaging that we won't need skills and attributes and all that crap.

so yes no attributes = great idea

makes balancing easier as well.

Games will always have numbers running calculations. Essentially what you want to see is a game that hides the numbers?

» Sun May 02, 2010 6:45 pm

There's two types of people when it comes to video games:

There's people who like a lot of content and options, and there's people who want their ego gratified not through hard work or thinking, but through playing games that virtually play themselves. A lot of major game developers have brainwashed gamers into being the latter because it's much easier catering to them. It's why I started seeing people repeat bioware's marketing talking points in actual debates. I never thought it was possible to sell a man a cucumber and margarine sandwich by claiming it's tastier than a philly cheese steak or a shawarma but very little surprises me anymore.

Yup, pretty much sums it up ^

» Sun May 02, 2010 1:49 pm

There's two types of people when it comes to video games:

There's people who like a lot of content and options, and there's people who want their ego gratified not through hard work or thinking, but through playing games that virtually play themselves. A lot of major game developers have brainwashed gamers into being the latter because it's much easier catering to them. It's why I started seeing people repeat bioware's marketing talking points in actual debates. I never thought it was possible to sell a man a cucumber and margarine sandwich by claiming it's tastier than a philly cheese steak or a shawarma but very little surprises me anymore.

I'm the first set of people, which is why I love SKYRIM! More options and content through Perks! Woot! :celebration:

» Sun May 02, 2010 6:32 am

I'm the first set of people, which is why I love SKYRIM! More options and content through Perks! Woot! :celebration:

Agreed, I'm really looking forward to seeing what they have done with perks and how that will all play out. Lot of potential variety there instead of every character just getting 100 in all skills and attributes.

» Sun May 02, 2010 5:10 pm

I'm curious to see how alchemy and magic works... I guess no more "Fortify Agility"... But what will we have instead?!

» Sun May 02, 2010 7:36 am

eventually I want games to have ZERO numbers in them and they will become so organic so engaging that we won't need skills and attributes and all that crap.

so yes no attributes = great idea

makes balancing easier as well.

You basically want an action game. An RPG cannot have Zero numbers. An RPG is comprised of numbers.

» Sun May 02, 2010 2:55 pm

[edit] Nevermind /derp

» Sun May 02, 2010 5:47 pm

Funny, I didn't have any of these issues. Guess I just enjoyed playing the game.

EXACTLY!!!!! I AGREE 100%

» Sun May 02, 2010 7:50 pm

My guess is that the Elderscrolls are getting closer to the GURPS rpg system and going away from it's D&D influence. I think this is a good thing because GURPS has only four or five attributes and is better suited for generic role-playing games which are not focused on combat. This is one reason i prefer GURPS over D&D. It works better for generic role-playing, while D&D works better for TB combat.

» Sun May 02, 2010 4:23 pm

My guess is that the Elderscrolls are getting closer to the GURPS rpg system and going away from it's D&D influence. I think this is a good thing because GURPS has only four or five attributes and is better suited for generic role-playing games which are not focused on combat. This is one reason i prefer GURPS over D&D. It works better for generic role-playing, while D&D works better for TB combat.

If you have GURPS like attributes and secondary characteristics, your basically bringing attributes back.

» Sun May 02, 2010 11:05 am

:snip: +
But one has to be attached to them, as they are all that attaches one to the character; its inherent (and intrinsic) to RPGs.

You basically want an action game. An RPG cannot have Zero numbers. An RPG is comprised of numbers.

Please, take off your rose-tinted glasses off before posting on this thread!

Do you guys even know what "roleplay" is? Maybe it's perhaps.... yeah know, playing a role? Unless you want to play the role of a mathematician, I see no point in wanting number, at least visible ones.
Just to further this last point:

Your view: "I am powerfull. With my 100 Strength and maxed out Blade skill, I did more damage, after accounting his Weapon resistance, than the number of hit points of that dragon, killing him."

The more organic view: "I am powerful. With my mighty strength and strict training with my sword, I was able to pierce that dragon and slay him."

Guess which one fits roleplaying better?

It's just so mind-boggling to me that people actually want to do math in a game like this. Hey, if you want to do it, go ahead, there's tons of genres where you can do that, and there's also chess or Hex, but leave my roleplaying games alone. Yes, there are numbers running below the hood, but, you know, a book has a typeset, page number and all, but I'll be damned if I had to determine the number of words on a page, dividing them by the page number and roll a dice to know which page I had to read next... Actually, this actually s a good anology to a linear RPG...

I have faith in this new system.
Is it going to work? I'm not sure, not enough info.
Can it make the game bomb? Well, on top the fact that some people may be on the verge of boycotting the game just for nostalgia and closed-mindedness, is, it can, though the fact that this system came from people that were able to add dragons in a way that they have no problem putting it as one of their main features makes me think that it probably won't.
Will it be more fun? Most likely, unless, again, you prefer to do math and/or +5 attribute grind and/or can only relate to a character through numbers (seriously? only through numbers? all those things you did with your character, the choices in playstyle and weaponry... None of this?)

And BTW, for those of you that say that +5 grinding is only a problem in Oblivion, you are seriously affected by nostalgia and habit, because the attribute system in Morrowind was the main reason I stopped playing it. I loved the story, I loved the environment, all that crazy and spectacular details like the trees and the houses, and I even tried to read many of the books I could lay my hands on. But having to carefully manage the skills I had from the start, how and which I would level them each time so that my play style wouldn't be gimped, stopping me from actually playing EXACTLY as I wanted because I would be weaker for it... Sorry, that's not role playing. I didn't buy the game to do math. I'm taking a degree in mechanical engineering, I already do too much math in REAL LIFE!