It never has been. Again, have you ever played them?

:confused: *sigh*


your undercutting attributes on the basis that it was too many numbers and that you don't base what you can do in real life on Numbers....and then I stated...do you want it in words? I also stated that beyond your "immersion" and what you think "your" doing or rather your character is doing in a game is not handled by you, -you- decide what you want to do and the game dictates whether or not you can based on the stats of your character, it grows becomes stronger and levels up, you don't measure this with anything less than numbers which is all over the game, I don't need to beat the "numbers are important drum" thats semantics

I merely brought up numbers because your blaiming attribute numbers for convoluted gameplay when they exist as a basis to tell you whats what, its a game, not real life you already stated you know atm your utopian game wont being seeing the light of day, so i ask in regards to Skyrim whats going to say whether or not a character is fast/strong/can carry an assload of stuff and tell WHY the character can do that...because as stated by Todd, you pick your character in the begining of the game, and done.

Thinking my newly created Khajiit can haul heaven and hell on his toes does not translate into the game if those which handle encumbrance is not there and perks as stated handle SKills and skills only

in FO3/NV Perks danced with Skills AND attributes (Special) with no problem, why is it all of a sudden an issue now.

Yeah, fair enough. I don't disagree that numbers work well.

One thing to keep in mind is that I don't think Bethesda disagree either. There'll still be numbers for skills, for health, for magicka, for stamina. It seems like they agree that the best way to convey information to the player about their character is via numbers. And yet they got rid of attributes. So isn't the question about whether we need numbers or not just a red herring in the attributes debate? You could think that we need numbers to convey information to the player, but still think that attributes aren't needed. Or, you could think that attributes are needed, but think that numbers aren't needed to convey information to the player.

If the question is: why have attributes, then the "we need numbers" point seems like a distraction. It seems to me that the relevant points have more to do with degrees of character customisation, what sorts of traits characters should have, and so on. How those are represented is a quite different sort of question, and has very little bearing on the real debate.

this.

How would they "fix" Mysticism, or more importantly, why. Just so you can have more categories for... no reason really. Sometimes I believe people would love if there would be three randomly generated numbers appearing on the screen, doing absolutely nothing, but it would make the game feel more "deep" and "complex".
"Superfluous" equipment was removed because... well they were nearly the exactly the same. What was the difference between a sword an an axe in Morrowind? They were trying to differentiate between two weapon types (they weren't really trying hard enough though...).
And I still don't understand all the complaining about enchanting, except that they made it less overpowered, making casting spells yourself actually useful in comparison, not to mention you don't have to turn on your fireproof armor anymore...

"No, youd be thinking all the time, what this or that visual cue meant."
"if you just played it like an action game, like he wants to, then you woldnt have to think at all."
Contradiction?

Also "No, youd be thinking all the time, what this or that visual cue meant."

Why? A visual cue means only what it means. An attribute number can mean hundreds of things and I wouldn't know its exact meaning. And trial and error is a good thing.

Vstastek...what part of "Strenght = 60, you need 60 to effectively wield this Claymore" escapes meaning?


anyway, thank you guys for the conversation, I feel we are getting a little be less assholish these past few weeks...may that continue.

If you're going that way, why does my warrior have to have a bigger mana pool just because he uses alchemy and needs intelligence? The perk system will resolve that.

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