No really, there wasn't anything crippling(I.E not saying it was perfect) about Attributes, skills yes, since thats the gripe, you picked a class and didnt use the skills it provided and leveled slowly and were weaker than enemies at the same level, not Attributes. and that problem was because of level scaling.

Sneaking from Oblivion to Fallout 3 was an improvement, people griped about how sneaking worked in Oblivion, it got fixed in FO3 and then even better in Skyrim...


This is an example of FIXING something.

And thats their bad isn't it? There's no reason to go past the level of the highest scale since you dont get anything from it but higher attributes, IE all attributes at 100 and you can still raise skills (player progression) without leveling. That's to circumvent the scaling, not the attributes. cap limit of 30 in OB let you max your two major attributes and either get a third close to max, or raise the others.

It was level scaling that was the bad guy, not attributes.

As I seem to point out every single time this is brought up...your commentary is not against attributes, but against poor attribute design. It is no big deal though....when you are out and about in Skyrim and your character that is a beast in unarmed cannot club a baby seal if his life depended on it because you forgot to get the clubbing baby seals perk from the perkolator...well...you can just pretend your character has strength.

:whistling:

I have the feeling that TES is going Diablo.

At first I was like "WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT? HOW COULD THEY REMOVE ATTRIBUTES?!?
Then I figured out that it removed all the annoying grinding required to make a good character in OB. Combine that with the new perk system I think it will be both rewarding, fun and a lot less annoying(still love OB and MW :tes: )

Exactly, as I have always said. +1 for the OP

TES was Diablo ever since Arena really...

Why would you want to grind skills? whats the fun of that? who are you trying to overtake with your power? who are you trying to impress?

When I play, skills level up from what i do and i give no attention to that. it makes the world develop naturaly, and there is no pain in my ass.

I think a big part of the origin of the teneur of this thread is Oblivion.
Attributes were not well done in Oblivion. Their potential was underused and the horrid level scaling made careless levelling, such as I was used to in Morrowind, not an option.

But I think its wrong to just look at Oblivion and form an opinion on attributes on that game alone.
There are currently four games in the TES series after all.
If they are done well attributes are a wonderful system. They offer layers of complexity and allow for easy roleplaying.

I dont know yet if Im glad attributes are gone. Ill have to wait till I play Skyrim and see how I like the new system.
However I think it is a shame that the TES series moves ever further away from their RPG roots as a very rewarding, utterly complex game with a massive learning curve to a cant fail, cant get stuck or lost, too easy to figure out action/ adventure.

There was. Introducing attribute multipliers in MW was an awful decision that encouraged people to be masters of all trades and actively punished focusing on the skills belonging to the same attributes. Endurance was the worst offender, since unlike with other derived attributes, previous health increases were not retroactive and a character who started with high endurance/concentrated on increasing it early on would always have much more health than a character that didn't.
But generally starting with a high attribute and a lot of major skills governed by this attribute was counter-intuitively bad for your character in the long run, since you'd quickly max that attribute out and then have to abandon your preferred skills unless you wanted to completely gimp your character.

Now, of course MW was a pretty easy game after a few initial levels, so it wasn't as much of a hurdle as in Obl, just constant nagging reminder at each level-up that you were developing your character sub-optimally if you just followed the style you liked . But level-scaling in Obl made it much worse.

The only TES game that I have played where attributes worked well enough was Daggerfall, because there you'd increase attributes at will, with an eye to the skills you wanted to use and increase. That was the proper use for the attributes, but frankly in the end most of them did just provide bonuses to skills and derived attributes as well as things like to-hit rolls, which are now gone, and critical rolls, which will now depend on perks directly. I am curious how they are going to handle the few things which attributes did that don't seem to map organically on the new system, like speed and encumbrance.

But on the whole - I was opposed to MW/Obl style of attribute/skill system and I liked the DF style well enough. But if they can make the perks do everything attributes did and more - well power to them. I am not into LARPing, so I don't need the stats just so I could imagine some things about my character that never matter for the actual gameplay .

I'm open to this right now and we'll see after I play the game. I think I'll be thinking about how to get my stars in my constellations to light up so that's not so different from grinding certain skills. We'll see when we play.

:tes:

What, you mean like railways, hospitals and schools, and modern civilisation. :thumbsup:

This still absolutely boggles me.

Why does the removal of attributes (or even anything else) instantly mean, that the game would be too easy, impossible to lose, and an action game, because the same could happen with attributes.

This jumping to conclusions really annoy me...

whoa that would be a huge change. i would like to see it tried tho. as long as your character keeps getting better at what he does and you can get perks in a certain way (also i dont mean like perks every level i mean that while getting better you unlock perks under the hood (you are not told you have unlocked them))

Correct me if I am wrong but we still have the 18 skills which will be increased based on the level of usage - we will not have the 8 (or whatever) core stats which determine our overall character (str, int, end, agl, etc...)

Am I confused now??

No, you have it right. Instead of the 8 core stats we will simply get Health, Magicka and Stamina.

So, the perks are still going to do things like increase our Endurance and Strength right? So the mechanics of the attributes are still there?

I doubt that would ever happen. Ever. It's still an RPG, it'd be incredibly hard to replace that.

Personally, I'll miss them, but only for nostalgia. They didn't really do much, to be honest.

Well since we don't know what any of the perks are yet, that's impossible to answer. But all the effects that attributes dealt with will be handled in some other fashion at least, though not necessarily with perks. For instance with Endurance, if you mean the health bonuses you got in Oblivion, your Health bar goes up each level up. Plus you have the option of adding points to it directly at that time as well.

What's the point of attributes? None of them accomplished anything that the skills themselves couldn't accomplish. I just don't see it, Todd's argument makes perfect sense to me.

Why raise strength? For more attack power and to carry more. For that, now you just get better at your combat skill and your carry capacity is determined by something else.
Endurance? To raise health and defense. So now just raise health... and armor/block.
Intelligence? For magic, so just raise magic instead.

You can go on and on. The attributes were pointless.


People argue realism or role play. So? How many attributes do YOU have? Exactly, people don't have attributes. They have skills and abilities, which is exactly what Skyrim is doing with skills and skill perks.

I love the change simply because it brought with it uncapped magicka. On top of this the fact one chooses between health stamina and magicka realy makes me happy.

I had wanted that for a VERY long time.

As far as strength.. I never cared. Yes in a game like fallout I liked to try and make strong chars sometimes.. but elder scrolls.. meh BORING realy. I hate small inventories..

Agility... as it didnt lead to ninja like characters I didnt care.

Endurance.. as long as I can still make a tank char.. and with trainable health I can... I dont care.

personality... I hate perky people always have always will I am about as likely to want to train personality as I am to dance nekked through iran wearing a bacon suit.

speed. I only care that now I wont be realy bleeping slow at the start of the game. I hate fast people always makes me wana trip em or open the car door as they whirr by on a bike.

Luck.. I hate that rabbit and those damn kids.


And now we will have something DIFFERENT. I like new stuff.

Diablo has attributes....

While it is only slightly related to attributes, I did not like one bit how in Oblivion you could no longer fail at something that was slightly over your skill level, and conversely no longer succeed against the odds either.
The general trend of simplifaction on simplification, of removing all ways of failing (this includes the magic compass) is a trend I find makes games less rewarding, and therefore less fun and replayable.
It also includes removing any learning curve. A game that takes time to master, or even understand, is more fun than a game that almost plays on its own from start to finish.

The chance to success only bought forth one thing. Save and reload. People complain how you can open every lock in Oblivion, but you could do it too in Morrowind, only you had to do less, just spamming F9. Basically this is my main problem with Morrowind combat, not how hits worked, but how little startegy is needed. I literally attacked somebody head on first, got killed, then reloaded, did it again but this time I won and I was barely hurt. I did the exact same thing, just spamming the attack button.
On the whole magic compass thing... there's a difference between removing "ways of failing" and removing annoyance. Magic compass just made finding landmarks easier. Getting lost is not a failing, you can always get back by following the map, or going to one direction, there's no quest that you can fail by not finding it.

also, with attributes gone, redguards won't have a racial bent towards stupidity and strength. that [censored] was just racist.