I've done this so many times that it's pointless to keep repeating myself. Yet I rarely see the pro-attribute side offering any suggestion other than simply stating "fix attributes". And the only suggestions that have been made relate pretty much only to Strength and Speed, while completely ignoring everything else.

Well you know Mount&Blade is good example of medieval simulator of feudal, but it have attributes, also does this in disadvantage of game?
No it isn't because attributes is not a flaw system they are parameters thats make model more detailed, removing attributes is removing details from model.

That's not a game... I would not be interested in a full blown Nirn simulator. There is too much competition for my dollar and my time.

I play RPG's to see how events play out for a specific native individual ~the character. I'm not interested in an alternate virtual life simulation.

Maybe, but then you shouldnt demand other people to adhere to things you yourself refuse to.
Why do other people need to give rhyme and reason when you refuse to 'repeat yourself' ?

Well that's a start, but in what way can these things not be done through skills directly, or through the use of some perks? Why have a bunch of redundant mechanisms that basically do the same thing as each other? And while some of those suggestions make sense, other aren't all that logical. With your Willpower idea for instance, it would be more logical to presume that if my overall magical abilities increase, I'd have a better understanding of how to defend myself against magical attacks.



We'd still end up with a scenario where you end up maxing out almost all of your attributes and ending up with just some generic character like the last one you played.



And that won't happen since there will no doubt be racial perks to make them different.

The problem for me is, where do you put that perk, if all of them are skill-related?

I cannot complain much about a feature that I have not seen yet, my main worry is that, in my opinion, though most things that Atributtes did can be replaced by Perks and Skills, Atributtes are still important. As I see it, skill is a parameter that says how skilled you are with certain weapon or magic or whatever. Atributtes are general things, so if I have high stregth, that affects to every skills related to strength and I'm a little bit more powerful with all kind of weapons. Skills would be still more important, of course, but a character that have used a lot a 2h axe have become stronger, so when he takes a 1h sword, although he has very low skill, he would make more damage with it than a magic user that have never ised either a 2h axe or a 1h sword.

Some atributte-skill relations made not much sense, so that would need to be revised, probably having to include more atributtes. That's how I see it.

I knew exactly what I was doing in Morrowind, why? Because of displayed stats.

If I am pointing out the flaws of the current system in almost every post I make, yet the pro-attribute people make no suggestions that support their view that the system can be fixed, why should I be the one required to yet again explain myself? You don't have to go too far back to see why I feel the system is flawed.

We've already shown and said how to fix it, numerous times, you just want to selectively ignore that for some reason. Plus level scaling was the real culprit.

no I'm not going to bother listing a example of an improved attributes system, I saw Terror of Death give an example of how attributes could be in Skyrim and he got flayed, and hes on the No attribute sides as well, so I for one am not going to waste my breath on people seemingly hell bent on axing attributes, Bethesda is over a hundred souls strong if they can't come up with a new improved version of Perks/Attributes/Skills system then how does that make them look when a simple forumer gives one?

an APS system would be beyond sixy and was pretty much what I was expecting Prior to January when the news dropped.

I keep seeing people harping on about this but how often does this actually come up in a game? Everyone has their preferred weapon, one that they're used to and know how it's going to respond in a battle, and they don't keep switching back and forth. In Oblivion my preferred weapon was the Longsword, and I never, ever used anything else during the game. I never had to worry about it breaking since I had the sense to keep my gear repaired, and if by chance I'd get into a fight where I became disarmed, I always had a backup longsword I could switch to. So this is nothing but a strawman's argument that means nothing since it rarely even comes up when playing. The only reason why I even bothered to train in Blunt and Hand to Hand, using the NPC trainers, was so I could carry more stuff, not because I wanted to be versatile. Which is a very silly reason to want to spend time and money on a skill frankly.

Attributes or perks aren't good or bad in themselves. You can only trim enough fat before it becomes an anorexic(game). I see leveling mechanisms as a burden for the series. Showing the progress can be better handled with a perk system than numbers of 0-100 ranges... or not. We'll have to wait and see.


And I'm not interested in linear games, even in the ones with fake choices. What would be better than a simulator for what you want, to see how events play out for a specific native individual? You can have what writers want for you to experience but I want to write my own stories.

Look at how other games have done it - those that have done it well - and think about it. I am not going make up a rulesystem for you. The basic line is to define the character beyond (and at the side of) the skills. Speechoptions, resistances, usage requirements (the use of weaponry and armor, understanding of both magic and mundane), initial NPC reaction modifiers, attackspeed, damagebonuses, luck and critical hits etc.

It is true that you can streamline everything to skills, but that shouldn't be the line of thought because there is no end to it - you can also streamline all the skills to 2 "combat" and "other", or even to one "do" skill.

One problem is the format. Insistence on FPP view is very limiting for anything other than running, examining, and poking a sword. I gather that most TES players are adamantly opposed to in-game cutscenes.

I'll tell you about a different RPG that I play; In this game my thief can enter a tavern and can strike up an impromptu musical performance, and (based on musical skill, personal attributes, and having an instrument) the crowd may react to them favorably (or not), and possibly tip generously. How would that play out in first person?
(Incidentally... if they are not good at music, but have high dexterity and acrobatic skill, they can try their luck at impressing the crowd with flips and handsprings, and maybe still get tips ~how would that play out in first person?)

Well, that's you. In Skyrim, I plan to play as a typical Nord, sometimes fighting with sword and shield, and other times chaging to a 2h axe. Now, with perks adding special effects (bleeding, +% chance of critical, ignore armor) I find switching between styles more interesting than ever before. And I remind you that even Todd Howard said that he found himself changing weapons a lot.

A feature is only as redundant as Bethasda wants to make it. In Skyrim (or at least how it is according to the interviews) you can have 100 skill in one handed, picked all the perks in the skill but you would still be as worthless with a 2hander as any level 1 character. Attributes are a more broad way of defining a character compared to skills, just like skills are to perks. This however does not make skills redundant. They simply are more overarching than perks, and while perks could just as well become the only way of defining a character by dropping the replacer attributes and skills. I do not think it will make for a better game.

As for the willpower part, I took that as an example because it was simular to how it worked in the other ES games. Besides, having high willpower is (or should be) viewed as a part of your ability with magic.


Then give attribute increase a hard cap like perks, or a soft one like the replacer attributes. It's not like having attributes always will result in maxing them all. This was just how Oblvion and Morrwind worked.



Racial perks will not be able to cover for the cutting of attributes. Either because racial perks will be given to you at the start of the game, causing every Nord to be as strong and smart for example, witch is just as wierd. If racial perks were picked trough the course of the game, in what skill would they be? So far, there have been no statements on perking races or general perks as far as I know.

While, with clever use of atributes, each race could have bonuses that last throughout the game. Simply by giving each race an certain percent of increase in a certain attribute. Orcs could gain a +10% in strength for example. While Altmer gain a +10% Intelligence.

"Racial perks" are not the solution to attributes. that would be limiting and taking away variety. Anybody can be anything on Nirn. An Orc mage, a Breton tank etc.

That's what TES is.

An RPG where the PC's personal attributes mask out what they cannot themselves accomplish, (or the reverse if you like :shrug:, one that only presents what your PC is capable of).

IMO a good RPG does this... It's world can be likened to a vast painting of a crowd engaged all manner of actions and events, but the personal stats & skills of the PC only reveal what they can perceive of it. For instance... If your specific PC cannot pick the lock on a mansion in town ~then you are never presented with its contents ~unless someone lets your PC inside.
Or better... If your PC lacks the faculty to understand something in dialog... to point out a flaw in the other's logic... then the aspect/opportunity that could have come of that, never happens in the game.

**A better example: http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/Gizmojunk/RPG-1.gif

In an abstract way, its linear gameplay... but only in so much as the boundaries of your many paths through the game, follow their own defined path... the one set down by one's PC stats & skills.

That doesn't work yet in cRPGs... Not until the studios start coding full blown expert systems with a working Dungeon Master AI.

Alright Im going to throw in a massive wrench and see how people deal with it.


Skyrim has Crafting, from smithing, Forging farming, cutitng wood etc etc etc ad infinae

"if you see NPC's doing it, you can do it too"

now I highly doubt there is going to be a wood cutting skills, or a farming skill....so

What will define the differences between a hardend nord and a maingy Khajiit and Wood cutting?

The power is in the perks. This is what Todd says. Skills are still important, but the biggest "umph" comes form the perks. So if we have perks that are very important to your character's overall abilities, and skills that are fairly important to your character's abilities, that would make attributes not so important to your character's overall abilities. If they're contributing that little, then how much of a difference are they going to really make?

If your skill with 2-handed weapons is really good, and this added to a good amount to your strength, you'd obviously be high level. Is that slight boost in damage for 1-handed weapons really going to be worth anything if you have to pick up a 1-handed sword (without knowing the first thing about using it), and start whacking high-level monsters with it? Probably not. Even in Morrowind and Oblivion, the only time attributes really did anything is when you used the ones that contributed to the skills you were already/planning on using (except for cheapo ones like endurance, which was ripe for abuse).

That was the biggest flaw in MW and Ob, in my eyes.. you had to select a race, gender, birthsign, and class that gave complimenting skills and attributes, otherwise you'd be gimped. Not only is this pretty meta-gamey, it seriously harms choice... you lock yourself into a specific path very early in the game, and mistakes take several levels to correct (if you know what you're doing and even know how to correct it).

Nothing, if it's only going to be an animation.

...well probably it will be more than that, but I doubt they would add any checks even if there would be attributes...

I would want an apprenticeship; most cannot just imitate what they see a master craftsmen doing, and get his or her results.

But that's exactly how things work in Oblivion. If I play a Breton with the intention of becoming a Spellsword, my attributes are exactly the same at the start of the game as if I were planning on playing as a Mage. It wasn't until I had picked my birth sign and class that there was any sort of differentiation at all. Granted that we could be given the ability to select our attributes, but then alot of players would end up with totally flawed munchkin characters like I keep seeing in some of the Fallout build threads I come across, or in the Neverwinter Nights 2 games. It's much better overall to start with a character that people can't screw up from the start, and have them progress while playing, than to start the game with a horribly gimped character that's going to turn out to be useless later on.



Well first of all they wouldn't be selected during the game but when you create your character. They also wouldn't be selected but be an innate ability for each race. It would be no different than Oblivion's Major and Lesser powers for each race.



You don't need attributes for those things, Orcs simply get a perk giving them 10% more damage in melee attacks, Altmer start with 10% more magicka. Bosmer get a 10% damage bonus when using bows etc.

And these will be important gameplay elements how? It's not going to matter one bit if my Nord character can out chop my Khajiit, that activity is going to mainly a flavour thing.

I don't like that one bit. Perks are supposed to an added bonus/ or exception to the rule.

A perk should adjust a common skill or ability; or the way the game handles a situation in the PC's case.... it should bend the rule a bit ~not invent new ones (like.. your ax now causes bleeding ~lucky you).