Fact is, there's no reason to get rid of attributes other than to appeal to people put off by what RPGs are. Games that you actually have to think in.

:foodndrink:

:thumbsup:

According to who's definition?

From the Wiki:



Where in there does it say anything about a game requiring attributes to be considered an RPG?

Roleplaying you can do in every game in existence, or even without a game - roleplaying game needs it's rules for the characters to work.

Well then quote post or give links and I will check them, besides I'm not are blind fanatic or something and can actually anolyze provided info, understood me all times when peoples says thats attributes was useless they have two way
post in unreasonable blind logic how bad they was and they facts based mostly on last TES games and mostly without taking in account thats there is can be mods thats fix such problems or examples from other games where such feature was implemented in better way, and such people claim thats attributes was bad as system not how bad they was implemented, thats really sad.
or
Use constructive way to decide all flaws in feature and brainstorm how they can be fixed.
If attributes was taken from character status screen but invisible forces of RPG mechanic thats stay behind them still in game I'm OK with this since such cogs can still be usable by modders,
in such cases variable still can be reached from game in for dependency to basic attributes, traits and perks, removing of attributes really strike hard modding, variability of possibilities will suffer from this, but if attributes was removed only from character screen and they effects still in game thats will be much better, and I believe thats will be in Skyrim, model need details and devs cant just remove them without large consequences.
Well I think starting traits will very helpful to decide natural abilities of actor, such traits can be tied to invisible attributes mechanic but in more significant way for example natural beauty trait thats increase initial disposition and add charming option, or Strong trait thats increase damage and encumbrance limit, or gift of Fay trait thats increase x0.5 all points invested into magicka during leveling up, and so on so one of advantages of attributes can be adapted to new game mechanic and thats will be much useful if we can create new perks and traits in CS by using hidden values in calculations.

Modded Oblivion really awesome game, while vanilla is more like meh another generic Action-RPG because of flaws what need fixed its like polishing flawed gem, game has potential but it was not used, but also lose good features from previous games add more to genericness, blind removing of attributes decrease such potential so even mod will not help much, until there will no complete info thats mechanic is not suffer from their removing and even become more deep, axing of attributes will be disadvantage in Skyrim form me,
OK classes was only nominal in TES (but thats can be also fixable with adding bonus perk points fro certain skills fro class and free assignment of certain perks as part of special training) but completely removing them from game? Well they can stay in game in literal form as well used for fast perk assignment for NPC in CS.
Spellmaking removed from game, well I'm OK with this if we can create new unique spells like premade ones in CS and if new magic system is Dynamic thats involves charging, channellings skill levels, perks and concentration check for decide magnitude, additional effects magnitude, chance of miscast of spell and at last two spells can be combined so with main and side effect new spell will have at last 4 spell effects active.
Todd say thats magic was too "spreadsheety" well thats apply only to premade spells, there was many combination of spell effects can be done in game, they are interesting and sometimes useful but real creation can be achieved only in CS where is forged and weaved from spell effects and scripts spells truly unique and definitely not "spreadsheety" at all, magic system must be opened and provide possibilities not be "golden cage".

It mentions RPGs as an afterthought.. Its not a good source for our vernacular.

** I have a question: Aside from the setting, what are some differences between roleplaying Sherlock Holmes and Monk?

If you think about it... its their attributes mostly.

~Actually I should have said Brother Cadfael and William of Baskerville. Lets use them instead.

Never. You have no idea what I experienced in this game. And I'm still experiencing.


That's so broad and it covers every single game. Limitations, every game have them plentifully. It should be everything I can do and more without touching the limitation issue which will be there in a good game or simulation.


Limitations, natural limitations. That's not different from what I want.


Don't call this kind of freedom linear, please. We know what is linear. Game can offer you a choice but it is all within the written story. There is no room for your story. It is not natural, it is scripted. I'm all for natural limitations. And if you always be pessimistic like that, there would be no progress. Instead of "we're not yet there, lets continue to have linear RPGs", demand it, say "I want more freedom for my roleplay".

We're getting there thanks to Bethesda. History is in the making here.

PS. Xarnac totally got me here, I was put off with what RPGs(video) represented for a long time then I met with TES. :tes:

show some respect.......THIS :tes: would not have been present this day had I not all caps a message about there not being a TES emote and Gizmos timing with presenting one and Gstaff just so happening to be around. k

And where exactly is the rule written which states that an RPG needs to have attributes? Role playing is about acting out through your character and interacting with the game world, nothing more. How the rules are derived is irrelevant. As I've pointed out in several posts now, there are hundreds of values used in these games that the player isn't aware of, or even needs to know about. Those are the rules. And you don't need to have a set of numbers in a menu somewhere in order to define them.

Just read the entire thread then. And the one before this one. I'm not going to repeat every single point I've made so far just for your benefit.

Where is it written that RPGs need perks? IT isn't, but it does add depth and complexity where there wasn't any.

I played enough... I pushed my acrobat to 26 before I quit (wouldn't stop swimming in the woods).

It covers RPGs.

I know you won't believe me, but that's what Stats are :shrug:; They are the PC's natural limitations.

but it is. :shrug:
Its no different than one PC's boundaries being constrained to the planet they live on, and another PC having the ability to travel off world. Every PC (by their very attributes) are each enveloped in their own sphere of limitation ~actually more like an abstract misshapen bubble, as no one has that rounded an education and physical ability.

"I want more role for my freedom"
(and that requires attributes.)

So a small child could pick up a warhammer, all through skill and without having much in strength?

But if you have nothing to define the character with, how will the game respond to him? The lack of attrubutes just trims down the amount of possible impacts your character could have/experience within the game.

Don't you go restricting me!

How is it a limitation when by level 50 you have every attribute maxed out, as so many players did in Oblivion. Not exactly a great system of character development when they all become the same in the end.

Well there can be individuals with strong willpower as well intelligence ones what is not magicians or have magical skills, smart thief and willful barbarian, your example more suit to skills, fro Destruction for example as perk at certain level.

One thing thats make Oblivion attributes flawed thats their Independency form skills and their overall weakness in compare to skills for example Strength has much less impact on Damage then weapon skills, better way its make impact equal or even more powerful.


Oh well thats is fascinating so there is no Classes no Attributes no Birthsigns and now even no racial traits?
Generic genericness everywhere, I dont think so.
All races will have traits thats expands beyond just bonuses to skills and H\S\M, besides if I remember well Todd confirm thats traits still in game, as well I think we have starting chose of additional traits in final release thats is not hard work to make them, Todd don't show charter generation because it still not finished in demo.

statement is relevant, in fact I'll record a child NPC, raise there skill to something like 70 with a blunt, and watch them own me with a 120 w. two handed Warhammer twice there size, that should get a point across.

They're called skills.

I'm speaking globally, of all RPGs in general.

I was glad to make it.

(I also made this one too a while back: http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj125/Gizmojunk/Vegas.gif )

People are not defined by their skills; (or their professions).

**And personally (in my case)... RPG characters are not a virtual body with special abilities.

So when are you going to acknowledge that we've already posted how to fix this?

Nothing wrong with some limitations, I would prefer a system that took in both a basic counter for attributes and skills. But I'll see how Syrim handles this through its new leveling system. I'll save my opinion till I actually play the game of course.



I want to see this.

This whole line of reasoning is irrelevant since you won't be starting the game as a small child. And the children NPCs in the game won't be given a Warhammer to play with.