I swear I heard Todd quoted with wanting to make it more of an action simulator than before. It might be my imagination though.

And how does choosing up to 50 perks each time you level up, out of a total of 280+, take away from variety? As for immersion, your character development is going to be directly tied to how you play the game. You swing your sword for awhile and unlock a perk that gives you a special ability in that area. How is having a bunch of numbers at the start of the game going to be any more immersive than that?

There's absolutely no reason why it can't be both. RPG is a very slippery category, you could easily argue for a bunch of FPS being RPGs as well. The problem that most people seem to have is thinking in terms of RPGs using only the D&D model as the basis. That's not necessary at all in a computer game, all those numbers and stats can be running in the background and it would still be an effective RPG.

The numbers at the beginning of the game are my core. They are part of my character. They can effect all things I do, I nurture them to grow in RP. The perks for skills, while welcome, add to who you are. But are lost when I change weapons.

Not arguing here, mostly just geeking out. I like comparing real-life stats vs game mechanics.


Elite sprinters are in the 27-29/mph range for peak speed. The main difference between people at that level is whether they're capable of maintaining the speed for > 50 meters. Elite elite sprinters (or those on steroids) get to about 60m before they decelerate. "Just" elite sprinters make it about 50m before deceleration. The "average" persons max speed is about 16mph. (I'm quoting peak speeds from 10m breakdowns of 100m races here. Average speed is slower, because they start from 0 and decelerate for roughly half the race.)



Agree on this one. Skill generally trumps prowess, though strength and even more so quickness can be a deciding factor. Look at the old Leonard (speed) vs Hagler (toughness) fights, or Fedor (skill) vs anybody.



I could see an argument here for damage resistance or damage threshold, calculated via strength and endurance. But there's no point to that if those same stats are also used to derive health.



RE: Jumping. For long jump, elite athletes range between 27-30 ft. But I bet the average person can jump about 10', and that's the interesting comparison IMO.

wow.. when i made the original post i had no idea it was going to turn into this many comments ... or get a part 2



PEACE

No, I want a role playing video game reflecting my imagination with non-linear real time actions, decisions and interaction. You, on the other hand, looking for a Tabletop/Pen&Paper simulator.

No, I want depth and you dont know what depth is. you cant understand simple numbers that are right in front of you apparently. You want a game as deep as a Fable game. I want TES to be as deep as Daggerfall plus all of the improvements from the latter titles. I want attributes and perks.

Except then it wouldn't be a fallout system.

Also in Fallout 3, the attributes manly served purpose when it came to giving you bonuses for you skills at the start of the game. And Intelligence served to determine how many skill points you got per level.

If you level the skills by doing what is the purpose of attributes?



Who said their making the game any easier or handing players a disk one nuke? The game might be easier for new players to get into. That's a good thing, because more people playing your game means more people will enjoy your product. And the more people doing that, the more profit you make, it's good business. Also being able to get into the game easier does not mean the game has been dumbed down, it does mean it's easier to immerse yourself in the environment they created. Which is also a good thing, and Bethesda's goal with these games from day 1.

Almost missed this.

With the advances in Computer graphics. Sure, Ill take some Action Adventure in my RPG. But what is it based on? If you say that building off the original RPGs is a problem, then we are just going to have to agree to disagree. The game system itself can be the GM and all the numbers can calculate in real time in the background. Thats great, I don't want to have to do them in my scratch pad. Let a computer do that. But I do want to know how I can make the numbers work in my favor and control of the variable.

Again, you could still use the Fallout system without it being Fallout. They are already taking the perks and level scaling from Fallout, taking the attributes would be an obvious and logical choice. Why? Because it worked.



Taking away depth to placate newer gamers isn't kosher.

There is nothing wrong with wanting attributes or perks. I'm only against the pen&paper mentality which makes you think the depth of an Elder Scrolls game is the numbers it has more than Fable. The depth I know is drastically different, it is about the culture, the world, the characters and their interactions, the experience I can have by the things I can do within the world in the name of roleplay...

Numbers are variables, variable are depth, depth is an RPG. It was created to simulate a working alternate reality. To make the reality you need numbers and stats. To know what you can do you need displayed stats, unless you have virtual reality implementing the limitations on your real body.

And why do you keep bringing up D&D? D&D depth in a video game would be the best TES ever, since D&D is limitless really. Although I would say Chivalry&Sorcery type depth.

I think Vlastek's point still stands. You are right that in one sense the numbers are pretty clear. If I've got N Restoration, then N + 1 is to be better at casting Restoration spells. But in another sense, it's often not trivial to know how those numbers make a difference to gameplay. Here's an example:

Suppose the game tells me that I have X strength, Y intelligence, Z willpower, etc. all the way through my character's attributes and skills, and whatever else. I'm in a dungeon, and I see a creature I've not encountered before. Should I take it on or not? How do I decide that? If I had the numerical stats of the creature, sure, that decision is much easier to make. I can calculate the damage per second I'll do, the damage per second the creature will do, what resistances I have, what resistances the creature has, etc. But suppose I do not have that information - as is typically the case, unless you've looked at UESP or the CS. How do I decide whether or not to take it on? It seems like I need to go by various imprecise cues. I might think: it looks big, so it probably does a lot more damage than other creatures I've fought, and I find those other creatures tough to kill, so I shouldn't take on this new creature. Or I might think: it looks like it's got some sort of fire spell, and my character has a weakness to fire, so I shouldn't take it on. And so on. I've got all my character's stats, and yet it seems like there's a good deal of imprecision in knowing what my character can do.

(This is not an argument for or against attributes).

But that's the problem with attributes in the TES system, they really weren't doing much work in the game. Intelligence is a good example. You raise your attribute in order to increase your Magicka pool, that's it. So why not increase your Magicka directly instead of going through that middle stage? There was not much point in trying to work those numbers since they didn't really contribute all that much to the game to begin with.

Its not some infallible way to determine combat outcomes. Its a representation of a variable. People dont seem to understand this. They look at 80 strength and apparently go derp, whats that mean? Never heard anyone complain about attributes until Todd said they were out. People complained about level scaling, or raising all attributes to 100, although they didnt have to. But nobody ever really said "Hey, lets get rid of attributes, that adds depth!". Anybody but a Dev initially says that and theyd get flamed into Oblivion.

I am thinking outside of Oblivion. What they should do, Oblivion is not my barometer for good attribute use. Bethesda had an opportunity to fix it instead of throwing it away.

And I'm sure they tried at first, considering that they still existed in the early stages. But given the choice of simplifying things or going with some convoluted system that could end up functioning like some other game, such as D&D or even Fallout, they decided to try something different instead. And it's impossible to know whether they made the right choice until we actually play the game. Personally, I like the direction they're taking.

Well of course it's not an infallible way to determine combat outcomes - that's precisely the point. Let me try to put it more concisely. The point is that players can know that the value of their character's Strength attribute represents that their character can carry a certain amount of stuff, has a certain amount of hit points, and can do a certain amount of damage, and yet they still need to rely on visual cues to make decisions about how the game will respond to what they make their character do (will my character kill that creature or not?).

The upshot is that if players are already required to make use of visual cues to make decisions about how the game will respond to what they make their character do, then why not use visual cues to represent things like: how much stuff can my character carry? How many hit points does my character have? How much damage does my character do? Why not let the player notice that their character is looking beefier, and use that cue to decide that they can carry more stuff, or do more damage in combat?

There might be reasons to think that for some cases numbers are the best way of representing these traits. But it might also turn out that for other cases non-numerical or non-linguistic representations can do a better job. I'm pretty sceptical that there's some sort of master argument which says that the best way for the game to convey every bit of relevant information about a character is via numbers.

We can go back and forth on what they tried, and it would be speculation unless you are the first party of Bethesda. I can assume that they figured the attributes mostly affected the 3 tank bars and thats why they threw them away. The math wouldn't be difficult to make them direct multipliers of melee attack, magic resistance, magic attack, speed, melee defense, etc.. So I don't know if that was tried or not either..

The difference, its easier. Make a game as deep as a TES with no displayed stats and yes Health/Stamina?Fatigue are displayed stats. It would be horrible. People would say "How do we fix this?" Then someone stands up and says "I now! Displayed Stats!?" That dude gets a raise.

Oh come on, I'm sure they'd have a pretty indepth understanding of how their own game worked.

Why not display the following stats:

X damage per strike against creature A.
Creature B does Y damage per strike against you.
NPC C has Z amount of magicka?

The game would be easier if those stats would be displayed, in a good sense: you'd be able to more reliably predict what will happen if you make your character interact with those creatures/NPCs in certain ways.

I guess what I'm trying to get out of you is: the game gives you some information through numbers, but in other matters you are expected to work them out on the fly, by using visual cues or trial and error or whatever. There are cases where more imprecise and speculative reasoning is involved. But where do you see the line being drawn? What is it about some relevant information which makes it suited to be given to the player in numerical form, and what is it about other relevant information which makes it less suited (or less important) that it be given to the player in numerical form?

TES does rely on visual cues, it always has really, but its determined by stats. Seeing your own stats isn't just for sizing up situations, particularly combat. Its there to represent an in depth view of your progression. A progresion deeper than 'Im buff, I must be strong, Im glowing, I must be magical, I have a mask on, I must be a thief.

I just have to go off the reason the lead game developer gave for gutting attributes. So as everyone has an honorable factor, there is no reason to think this is a fabrication. So my suggestion to try attributes as multipliers: "The math wouldn't be difficult to make them direct multipliers of melee attack, magic resistance, magic attack, speed, melee defense, etc.. So I don't know if that was tried or not either.." May have some basis.