http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1187460-the-reason-im-glad-attributes-are-gone/page__st__200


TC1's OP:

ok so when i first heard that attributes were gone i was like WHHHHHHHHHHHHHAT, NO NO NO NO NO NO, why why, ect. but ive been playing through oblivion lately and i understand why now, trying to get tha +5 in each of your skills takes all of your attention , i spent more time training skills then i did playing the game, i spent more time building my character than i did PLAYING THE GAME, i could not become immersed in the game because to make a powerfull character i had to focus on grinding certain skills up, with attributes gone i wont have a reason to grind a bunch of skills (sure ill grind some to a certain skill up, like alteration or something cas i want i higher spell but it wont be " I have to get these 3 skills up 10 levels each ")

im supper excited now for skyrim.. e3 plz come sooner



PEACE










I wanted to keep this discussion going.

Its...interesting, to say the least. I'll have to play it to get a real feel for everything. Personally, I like the reduction of numbers...but the reduction of things to do is a bad thing. I'll be fine, as long as, for instance, someone can still get more str. As long as the things that those numbers took care of are still in game, I'll be fine.

That's the most stupid game mechanic I have ever heard. Who exactly invent this? Morrowind didn't have this stupidity. Oblivion has it for spells and I hate it.

I can wield any weapon I want. If I'm not effective with it then I'm not effective with it. Why does strength have to be so widely scaled or weapons for that matter so that it has to come down to my strength. It is all in the skill, always. I would never make a game where attributes drastically progress.

pic is relevant
http://godardsletterboxes.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/eowyn-fighting.jpg

While Im for attributes, I can only imagine bethesda going

holy crap all this awesomeness we're stuffing into Skyrim...and the skyrim section almost burned down because of attributes :ahhh:

Vstatek.....its an example, no it never existed in TES, but you were saying Attributes signified some ambiguous functioning that had no meaning to you.


Skill does not = more damage....it means you can do more with a Blade others can, you are able to handle it, a blade does not do equal damage on all creatures and enemies in Skyrim and effectively your Skill is still labeled under a number :bonk: but we aren't going to go there again. and there will come a time were you will need to improvise when you don't have a blade on you. so Im suddenly a noob again because my Basic swing for a mace which swings exactly like a sword doesnt do enough damage?

I know right? I did not like how wearing armor you are not skilled in messes up your magic in Oblivion, if I am remembering right

So youd notice the visual cue from having restoration at 29 as opposed to it being at 30?

The reason I'm not glad the attributes are gone? World of Warcraft. It has Intelligence, Agility, Strength, Spirit, ... like every classic rpg. So WoW, the most casual and 'for the masses' rpg to ever hit our planet will have more attributes than Skyrim.

I just want to say I'm glad they're gone. They never really made sense to me. It seems like nothing has changed, there's just no trickle down effect.

@Father Trotsky

So? The two games are entirely different, an MMO and a single player RPG. Something that works for one may not work for the other. Just because it has more attributes than Skyrim doesn't mean it's better...It's just a different game. Apples and oranges my friend. Also I hate WOWs insane interface.

I'll just post what I said at the end of the previous thread, because I think it's a point worth repeating.

On the relevance of the "we need numbers" debate to whether attributes should have been removed:

I don't have to but I want to ask you the same question. Do you notice the difference between restoration 29 and 30? Is there even a difference?

Pretty much Srk is on point, so lets drop the numbers talk because arguing whether or not it matters effectively kills braincells.

My speak on Attributes is that they are the Parameters for a character, your blank slate character in Skyrim doesn't have a history concerning the game, not your Roleplay so saying they are skilled in so and so doesn't apply because effectively ther are just born as far as the game is concerned.

with skills there is no failiure, your not weak vs anything, or at a disadvantage except for the level of another char. what you expect Perks are going to have disadvantages? no -I- don't -think- so and im pretty sure people wouldnt want that, my oh my I worked so hard in my Blunt and I pick this perk as a reward but Im being punished for it?


Attributes help relay what you can and cannot do, its not about how it worked in Oblivion or Morrowind, its Make it better, make it matter like they did everything else.

My post in the last thread

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which brings me back to the one instance I have been advocating since day one January when we found out.

Not against Perks perks are fine.

Not wanting the old system, I am not resistant to change, change is good sometimes and bad others

attributes weren't the root of all evil in Oblivion, but they werent the model of existence either.


so my one statement.




FIX THEM MAKE THE MATTER

The hell they had it in initially and then took it out and yet, they go through annoyances to make everyone killable because "thats what people were begging for"?


Perks are for skills, the Mags and interview say this and only this, there are 280, thats the number no higher no lower, and 15 assuming all perks are distributed equally for all 18 skills.

They are not for Attributes, the only "attributes" are H/M/S as todd stated, no there isnt anything under the hood and the only input in H/M/S is leveling up and picking what you want to raise. Intelligence wasn't only for Magicka raising, it helped Alchemy, Expand on that, make it deeper theres nothing wrong with Attributes/perks/skills dancing together....there are over a hundred people at Bethesda this solution could not be by far the best to just axe them out and tout that the same bars we've seen since (censored) Arena are all of a sudden what 8 attributes were in past games now for Skyrim.

Yep. I understand its representation and its in-game meaning. And its much more reliable than counting the rips in my arm to see how much damage I'll do compared to X enemy.

If you increased strength you could carry more and hit things harder.
If you increased speed you got faster.
If you increased endurance you got harder to kill.

Not sure what there is that's tough to understand.

Now, I do agree with those who say that the attribute system was flawed. Start off weak stupid and clumsy and end up might, brilliant, and agile. Not too good. IMHO attributes should be more or less set at character creation and then only rarely increased. That would force the player to decide what their character really is. not a new concept - PnP D&D has been doing it for over 30 years.

Yes.

I just found these stats on the Wiki regarding the Claymore:



You'd have to be weak to the point of being bed-ridden to not be able to wield a weapon that only weighs 5.5lbs.

You don't know the difference. You assume. I assume too. The difference is I see what I assume whether I actually notice the minute details or not.

Let me give an example. You have 67 strength. Now tell me if you can kill MK-{OmegaX} or me?

True, but wouldn't this complaint be nullified if perks took care of the eliminated attributes? So instead of speed you'd have an endurance tree, or something.

Perk 1: You can run 15% faster

Perk 2: You can run 30 % faster

Perk 3: Max: you can run 50% faster. By doing this you could still keep tabs on people so they didn't somehow break the game and get 1000 speed. This is just speculative on my part, I don't know if perks like this have been confirmed or not.

I dont assume, I know. I need to know Omegas stats, my stats, my equipment and Omega's, etc. to know if I can kill Omega. i can understand these things. To help me they are derived numerically, oppose to sitting there and playing I spy the stats in a moving game world.


Edit: To add to that, visual cues are used to assume what somthing is. Not how effective they are at what you have assumed they are. They also represent the variables that cant be visually put on screen and the variables over different builds etc.

Honestly they should of just done attributes like the newer Fallouts.

Well, we don't give that information in this game. Unless I look up at UESPWiki, I have no idea what's about anything. You need to use common sense and "trial and error" my friend.

All these things can be easily replaced by some other mechanism in the game.

Not sure what there is that's tough to understand.

And what about all the other attributes, or are you just conveniently ignoring them?



Well maybe they didn't want to end up with just a D&D clone. Perks really aren't all that different from Feats after all. Not to mention that you'd still need to find some useful role for attributes to fill that couldn't already be done through some other fashion.

I have, you apparently just need to look at the UESP to know it. "Trial and error" TES would be the worst selling TES ever unless you made it extremely linear. We were not born in that prison. Overt trial and error is for people new to TES and eve then they can just read up on it.

People keep saying that they were too worried about the stats to actually play the game. Why? We are given the in game tools to achieve "balance" and its not hard. It was at its worst in Oblivion becasue of level scaling. I played, I never had to seriously contemplate or use a advanced formula to decipher the meaning of somthing. You just play the game and soon its second nature. And Im talking about a vanilla TES, with no mods.

But Bel the mechanism isn't present...Todd would have elaborated on this, what would be the point of Saying Athletics and acrobatics are gone and not say what that is handled by? he says their out, there were In at one point and now they are out. simple as that.


and the guy that gave perks about increasing speed.


perks are for skills only...

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand there was a reason why we're going to have a separate Sprint function. Is it really a suspension of logic to assume that if you have higher Stamina that you will be able to Sprint faster and for longer periods than someone who has less Stamina? While that hasn't been confirmed, I'd be quite surprised if that's not how it's going to work. There are alot of things we don't know about the game yet, but that doesn't mean these sorts of things haven't already been accounted for in any way.

Raising your stamina doesn't mean your faster than the average Joe just like raising health didn't mean I could do more damage or Take a blow better than an individual with the same amount of health (we're talking gameplay here), do you know if raising my Stamina on a Woodelf would make them faster than a Nord who had an exact increase in stamina as the woodelf?


what about jumping?

Normal movement speed without armor..

etc etc

I'm going purely on what we've been told nothing more.

It's not but here's the kicker....

Your weapon skill also determines how much damage you do.
Athletics in the last game determined how fast you ran or swam.
Hit Points determined how hard you were to kill.

And all those play a bigger role then attributes when it comes to determining things.

About the only wild card here is carrying capacity, which isn't tied to any particular skill.



And again PnP D&D doesn't use hidden variables it uses simple formulas to determine things. TES games are a little more complicated then that in the formula department, because everything is happening in real time with direct input from the player.

D&D you say your going to attack the goblin, you roll to see if you hit the goblin using a simple comparison formula, then you role your damage using the weapons table damage + strength and enchantment bonuses.

Elder Scrolls game you say I'm going to attack the goblin, the game not only factors whether you hit the goblin, the game asks, did you use a swing or a thrust? How fatigued where you? Did you use a power attack? was the goblin blocking?

Fallout 3, I'm going to shoot the raider, game asks How many rounds are you firing? Is the gun an automatic? What part of the body are you targeting? How good is your skill with the gun in question?

The games calculate this in the amount of time it takes for you to blink.

I'm not saying stats are bad, they give you a general idea of how good a piece of equipment is, or how good you are in a chosen field. But they only give you the general idea at best. So why add another layer here that only adds some minor effects? If Intelligence only effects magic, then why not have the ability to increase the magic pool directly? If Endurance effects hitpoints then why not just go to hitpoints directly and cut out the middleman?