Sleign, I'm not sure if you're trying to ignore me or if it happened on accident. So I will sum up with a single question.

From a gameplay perspective and not a development perspective, was it a necessity to cut skills in order to include interesting perks?

Well I'll answer your question with another question and an answer.

First the question. What makes you think that they cut skills at all to include interesting perks?

Now the answer. No from a gameplay perspective and a development perspective because they didn't cut skill in order to include interesting perks, they merged skills together that belonged together. The only skill that was cut since Morrowind was spears, for good reason. It's not like they have been reducing skills all this time in anticipation for the perk system. They have been reducing the number of skills to make skills more meaningful choices instead of redundant ones. There is more customization and diversity with Skyrims skills and magic and so on, then there were in Morrowind, Oblivion and even Daggerfall. People just need to stop for a second and look at the big picture and realize this.

I heard from the interviews that the skill cuts happened because a few previous skills they had were bland, and so replaced by perks.
I think that because Beth specifically said so.

And in your own post you described them as being replaced by perks. I understand they are still physically in the game, but the skills are not. Short sword is no longer a skill it is a perk.

I don't think you can split hairs much finer.

Its troubling to that a blanket weapon skill will increase the damage of every weapon in that group.
Its troubling because the skill does not signify previous training with more than one weapon.
I'm going to guess that attacking with any bladed weapon increases the Blade skill; which in turn increases the base damage of every bladed weapon.

Unless I have it wrong, this means that using a dagger for most of the game increases your PC's base damage with two handed swords.
Is this true?

What makes an RPG?

No, that will not be a problem. One-handed and Two-handed are separated.
In the very least I think that people everywhere can agree that Oblivion had a skill system at [a] low point of the series.

[the] Seti pointed out Arena in another thread, I think Arena wins that prize actually.

I never said skills were replaced with perks. Also, bethesda never said they cut skills to fit perks either.



No, they are the same skill but weapons don't get the bulk of their power from leveling the one-handed or two-handed weapon skills, they get some power but for the most part, all the power comes from the unique specializations you do in perks, which are on a weapon to weapon basis which each weapon has their own unique perk effects. Your not quite grasping the true picture of all the elaborate and massive customization that this game has. If you could see it for what it is, you would see that there is insane amounts of customization, more than any previous TES game. 57,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 possible combinations of skills/perks and each different combination is widely different than another, yeah....



What makes an RPG is the ability to create a character as you want to serve a role. That is an RPG. RPG =/= stats/skills, RPGs are synonymous with customization and Skyrim has more customization than any other TES game to date.

What I'm not understanding, is why these systems are not reversed, and have "One Handed Weapon" be the perk to improve all your one handed weapon skills.

Sleign, you don't know what I see, and you don't know what I am saying.

I don't know how to phrase my points any further.

The cuts were necessary. I believe it factors into an overarching intent to shorten the amount of time it takes to start playing in earnest.

because then they would all still do the same thing, like in Oblivion or Morrowind.

with the Skyrim specific weapon perks, weapons do unique things like bleed or 5x sneak damage.

Ok I'll try to explain my point in a bit more clear fashion:

Start at zero. this is the first time you ever try to use a weapon, say, a mace. Then you begin using it more and more, your muscles develop to allow you to swing it better. Then, after a while, you start discovering techniques and subtleties that can only be used with a mace. But oops, you just lost your mace, and all you can find is a longsword. Well, while they do not handle quite the same, all you'll have to do is adapt a bit of your technique to be efficient with it. The muscles and coordination you developped while using a mace, are still helping you as much as they were before. All that changes is technique.
I think that's what they're trying to do with skills and perks:
Skills ->how "natural" the basic thing comes to you
Perks ->the subtleties, the more technical, specific parts.


BTW I'm not saying the system is perfect. All I'm saying is that it's was better than what was before, where you might be a master of swords, but still not be able to kill off anything with an axe.

And honestly, why care so much about the number of skills? I mean, it's not like you could only do 18 actions in the game...

... And IMO they shouldn't.

A knife with a bleed effect is designed that way in the blade. Adding super-powers to conventional hand weapons is an immersion breaker.

I'd have no qualms with finding an assassin's blade with a bleed effect, but having a perk that empowers any longsword I find with the same, just seems silly to me.

But that's exactly how Skyrim's is. If your main weapon is a mace and you lose it and you have to fight with an axe, your going to get your ass handed to you if fighting an enemy that is using their own specialized skill. That's what perks do, they do basically what separate skills did in the past games and more.



They aren't magic effects. The axe perk that allow your attacks to make your enemy bleed is called "Deep Wounds" and you have "learned" how to maximize the blood loss caused by your attacks so it allows for you to make them bleed by being able to deftly cut them deeply. It's not magic effects. Also, the bleed effect is unique to the axe. You can't pick that perk for a longsword because that perk is unique to axes. Do you see now?

Then I don't think it's an RPG you're looking for. let's take it a little further: any bladed weapon should kill in one hit if you hit the throat, or the head, as long as the oponnent isn't armored (and even then...)

I have been reading your post and I think Skyrim may not be the game for you.

I think the new system is the best in TES to date, it gives me more options, more customization, more replay value than past games. But you seem to dislike it a lot and as its a major part of the game perhaps this just won't be the game for you.

Its what I am looking, Beth has somehow tapped into my mind and is making a game with all stuff I had hoped for or wanted fixed from past games plue many great ideas I had not considered. One of those hopes included fixing the unbalanced jack of all trades skills system. But you seem to want this, so I think MW or Daggerfall may be what your looking for(if you can get past the dated elements).

Also you might want to try a some fps or other game for highly realistic combat, this is a fantasy game, making it so were so awesome at using axes(any ax) that we cause are enemy's to bleed to death(possible) fits right in, and actully makes the weapons different than before.

Actually, I understood it the other way: The skills were how good you were overall, and the perks allowed you to add to your mastery. I think it was actually meant so that you could specialise without penalising other weapons of the same skill. (as opposed to past games where you could, say, one-hit anything with a sword, but still fight for you life against a rat if you're weilding an axe, which honestly doesn't make sense)

Otherwise, we might as well just have got a skill for each weapon, it would have done the same thing

Also, what you say is not taking into account the new combat system, which seems more like a real fight than just a "I hit, you hit, I hit..."

I understood this..
I understand that.

But I don't believe this for a minute... ~Not that it isn't true (in the game), just that it isn't believable.

This I find believable though. An Axe has a relatively tiny blade when compared to a sword, and in order to cut, you need to hit with it, and its a lot heavier than a sword ~It doesn't go where you want it to unless you have some experience with it. The examples I've seen would presume there is no difference between swinging a sledge, bat, golf club, and a hockey stick.

Not sure how the new even simplified skillset will work, but if it's possible to
-take care of your wounds also without using magic
-dodge attacks, projectiles, maybe even spells
-use polearms
-land critical strikes
-play instruments
-kick in doors
-pickpocket
-track and hunt
for example, then they've actually added something after TES4.

But that is the thing. The new system does exactly what the old system did and more. Why keep the old system just for the sake of it being here first when the new system can replace it and do exactly the same thing and then add a whole new range of diversity. That's what people need to realize the old system is still in the game but new and improved but looks different.

Though I can't say I am surprise, it is fascinating how much importance people attach to arbitrary numbers. If its more its good, if the number is lower it must be bad. Regardless of other elements in the system.

Possibly, and I know in the last two is was rather a pain to get the game going.
I thought they fixed most of the mechanics issue from MW to OB, and I hope they cut the tutorial time from OB to SK. I didn't think the main problem to be as much a skill count issue, but I can see how the variation added to the process.

Well the tutorial time from OB to SK will most certainly be much shorter because in OB they tried to let you have a taste of several skills to see which ones you might want to pick for your major and minor skills. Now that we don't have major or minor skills, we won't need as big as a tutorial. However I enjoyed the tutorial in Oblivion even after the 20th time doing it. It just gives the air of the true plight, your the emperor is trying to escape assassination and you make your way through as well. It was great imo and it didn't really feel that long especially after you just rush your way through later on because you know where to go but still getting the feel from it.

Not to try and point out the obvious(and Ive not read the entire thread) but it is a video game. I doubt 100% realism is a concern, or even any half-realism if it would make the game unfun. But anyway to become a master with a sword, for example, I imagine you must at least be familiar with other types of weapons and how theyre used so you can counter them. You probably need to know how heavy something is and the likely strikes and stuff like how far it follows through and whatnot(Ive never picked up a real weapon in my life, lol).

I know that probably doesnt make any sense in relation on what you actually experience in the game, but it might help to make it not so weird. You could just imagine that your experience using a Blade also includes studying enemy fighting styles.

How the new system is, you gain most of your power from perks though you get some of your power from the weapon skill. This allows for you to not be completely helpless when using a different weapon then your specialized in but your at a grave disadvantage if you do use something outside your specialization and most likely won't win or it will be extremely difficult for you to win.

Id say the number 1 problem right now is most people cant get a grip on what bethesda is doing this time simple because they havnt shown what they are doing.

Until we have all 18 skills locked down we cant see it.

Magic was always the easy class skill wise as it was always.. blorp x magic classes and y magic skills tada your done. Easy .

But they never got warriors or thieves quite right. And until they tell us the full combat and stealth skill sets we have no clue if they got it better or worse then before. We realy cant tell. For all we know the hidden combat skills could be total crap.