Mara

They only attack intruders. In at least some chapels, if you are a member of the Nine Divines faction, you can not only go into the chapel quarters, but also into the undercrofts, even some of those that aren't directly connected to KotN, without fear of the spirits attacking you.


And is it really an effect of the Dreamsleeve that mortals cannot retain memories and knowledge of their past lives? I thought it was because when they reincarnate, they are placed in a tiny, empty vessel initially incapable of holding any such memories or knowledge.
[/off-topic ranting]

The decay already starts with the spirits that stick around. Most of them have trouble recalling events or focusing on anything but the most familiar in their lives. The ghost smith in Mournhold and the Ghost of some guy in a Legion quest are good examples.

But, it is a bit odd to bind spirits to undercrofts. I mean, it made sense in Vvardenfell, what with the ancestor worship and history of having the dead protect burial sites. I haven't played Daggerfall - is there any mention of the binding-the-dead practice in Cyrodiil? It seems like an odd thing - almost like Necromancy, you know?

They probably hide behind the same defense the Dunmer do - If you do it, it's veneration and protection of kin. But by gods, if anyone else does it, it's teh evilz of Necromancy!
Though, other than the mention of Cyrodiilic rulers giving the bodies of criminals to loyal and legal necromancers, I can't recall any other mention of messing with the dead specifically relating to the Heartland.

I found the Undercrofts themselves to be a bit of a surprise - I wasn't expecting something like that, to be honest. Why are dead bodies there? Are only notable people allowed to be there, or is everyone's body stored away down there? Why is it done? Is it to keep the body from falling into the hands of teh evilz Necromancers? If so, then why not just practice cremation and thus deprive a necromancer of any raw material (skeleton, corpse)? The Green Way in the Imperial City has a bunch of graves, though in the Scotti adventures (A Dance in the Fire or the Argonian Account, I forget which) describes it as full of upper-class office buildings, if I recall correctly.

Mara and Zenithar.

That's what the bretons of High Rock practice, cremation, if I recall my favorite necromancer book correctly. And as far as I can deduce, a necromancers really can't make a skeleton with bone dust or ashes; they really need a whole skeleton or at least the important bones that'll keep it standing and working.

Well, it's probably the final resting place for the Noble, as evidenced by Lhathasa Indarys's grave/tomb. Or for influential families in the local area, as evidenced by Francois Motierre getting put with his fellows after his "death." Though it might also serve as a bit of a morgue, a temporary holding area for fresh bodies, stored in a subterranean stone environment to discourage rapid decomposition until all the funerary matters are attended to. And of course, not only does interring the dead in the undercrofts (or burying them right next to the chapel) give the sentimental effect of keeping them close to the divine, it also has the added effect of keeping them under close watch to attempt to protect against grave robbers or corpse-manipulators (and even Falanu Hlaalu).

I dunno why they just don't practice cremation. It would certainly make things easier, along with freeing up valuable deceased real estate.

I'm reminded of the tomb of Lord Nelson, which I saw once in the croft in St Paul's. His tomb is one floor below an important altar, which is probably a further sign of the reverence in which he was held. Maybe the undercroft in TES is for the more saintly or more distinguished of Tamriel's believers. (But then, in European cathedrals you see the tombs of many nobles and figures of the Arts underfoot, some of them so worn by foot traffic you can't read the epitaphs. Thinking of Westminster Abbey too.)

As for influences on TES, we've heard in this forum that Gnosticism was probably one of the influences as well as the ideas of Mircea Eliade. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_Return_(Eliade)

Not to mention Hinduism and Buddhism.

It's possible that the Sanctified Spirits choose to guard the undercrofts as a service to the Nine.

The Daedra and Aedra have no differences other than how they were involved in the creation of Nirn. Any other differences are created by them. There are Good Daedra, that attempt to respect their followers for whatever reason, and the Nine Divines don't do much to help Tamriel anyway, other than when someone is going to destroy it.



Yes, it can. There are Greek, Roman, Breton, French, English, Gaelic, Mongol, Pacific Islander, Assyrian, Norwegian, Swedish, Saami, Hindu, Christian, and many different pagan religions that have been used in the TES world somewhere. There are also African tribes, Amazonians, and Native American ideas in the cultures of many TES races.



Don't make these generalisations, as it makes it hard to get this, if you're basing your opinions on that sort of thing. And it really annoys me



The TES world is not set in the medieval era. People will tell you it is, but as we don't know where it's set, we are unable to compare the technology level to a time, and as a result we cannot say when it was. Yes, the medieval era had swords. But it did not have airships.

To be honest, a lot of that veers toward an obsession with death. Take, for example, the Sicilian Mummies (you can view parts of the Nat Geo documentary on their website http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/explorer/3827/Videos#tab-Videos/06310_00). It's just damn creepy. People can't let go, so they hold on to dead bodies, try to preserve them... I would have thought such an obsession with death (this is an interesting theme that is quite prevalent in many real world religions and cultures) wouldn't happen in a universe (TES) where the mechanics of death and life are an actual certainty (Dreamsleeve, etc), and the soul is a defined phenomenon. Even if mortals don't know much about the Dreamsleeve, they do know they have a soul - therefore, why would they cling to dead bodies when they know that the body really is an empty vessel for the soul, and that though the body is dead, the soul persists?

because the body is tangible? Its something that can definitely be looked at unlike a soul which you may very well never encounter again when the person dies? I dunno

It seems that TES universe is unique. It does seem to be based around the time of the late Roman empire though, or at least so in Cyrodiil. Their technology does have some exceptions, but Oblivion's gameworld mimics Roman culture and Greco-Roman architecture, leading me to believe that their technology is what was in our world approximately 2000 years ago, and their technology is probably similar to that of the Roman Empire/ Greece at the time I have specified.

No. You can only say that because of the collapse of the empire and the Roman influence on the Imperials. I don't recall Romans having to usurp elven captors and snakemen coming and ruling their empire for an era.

Methinks you haven't played TES III.

A horrible result of lore screwups on the devs part.

What does that have to do with anything? I said based, not exactly like. Cyrodiil itself is Roman-based. Perhaps I didn't specify that. The Romans conquered foreign and strange lands and Cyrodiil shows that the Imperials truly are based on the Romans. As I recally, Morrowind is just a foreign province. The game's architecture is clearly Greco-Roman and their technology seems to be similar. Elves and snakemen have nothing to do with it.

Why do you assume that I haven't played the third? I know all about the jungle-turning-forest lore change. It doesn't mean that I need to mention it wherever I go. Cyrodiil is what it is and Imperial culture is what it is. That is official. You can't ignore an entire TES game. Whether it was messed up or not, it is what it is. What the developers say is lore is lore. Imperial culture is based on Roman culture. Their technology also seems to be similar for the most part.

You said TES universe. You didn't specify a game in your statement.

Their technology isn't similar, as the Imperial Legion uses plate armour similar to that used by knights of the Holy Roman Empire, its weapons resemble those of the English and French nobility, and it has airships.

There are more similarities between the Imperials and Romans in other games in the TES series, not Oblivion. Their armour, weapons, and forts in Morrowind appear to be based on what we know about the Romans, although they do use some Spanish and Italian designs for their fortifications (note: if you encounter the Oblivion changing the lore argument, just remember that the Imperials weren't in any TES game before Morrowind, and the Dunmeri nobles in Daggerfall appeared to be humans).



Only in the Imperial City, but the designs of the houses aren't Roman, the materials used to build them is. Anvil is Spanish or Italian, Bruma is Irish with some Norse, Cheydinhal is English and French, Chorrol is English or Dutch, and Skingrad is British (it reminds me of Edinburgh and London). The others are original, or it would be offensive if I said what they were based on

Just thought I'd note: Old argument long put to bed. Game mechanics related, not lore related. Every quest-giver in Daggerfall looked like the same race. And in the very same game, we are given a http://www.imperial-library.info/dfbooks/b101_complete_barenziah.shtml to counter the purely mechanics related appearance of Barenzia, Helseth, and Morgiah being human. So yes, even in Daggerfall, the Wayrest royal familay save for Eadwyre and his blood-daughter is understood to be Dunmer, and Dunmer is understood to be a elf race with blue skin and fire-red eyes.

Technology is not a linear road that is traveled the same way at the same speed everywhere. The Chinese had printing press, compasses, fireworks, kites, and huge sea-worthy ships before Europe. Medical science progressed then regressed then progressed again. Etc. Likening things to the equivalent you know, or think you know, will get you nowhere new.

Agreed. Take, for example, the presence of chemistry equipment such as calcinators, alembics, and the retorts. Aside from the knowledge about how these devices function, there needs to be a technological level of craftsmanship with materials - glass blowing, metal working, etc.

Arms and armor are a mish-mash from all eras - the most basic studded leather from ancient times to plate from the Renaissance. Aside from the form (chain and plate), you have to consider the technology to purify the ore to a degree where it isn't brittle from too much carbon.

Simply put, the technological time-tables in Our World aren't the same as in TES. Some aspects are very advanced, yet related aspects did not also advance as they did in Our World.... and vice versa. It's one of the more subtle and intriguing aspects to creating a fantasy world - what if a certain material that is abundant on Earth is more rare in the fantasy world? What if magic removed the need for advancements in ranged warfare, medicine, and transportation?

This has gone, WAY OFF TOPIC...

It's the lore forum. Everything goes off topic, but since information is still being discussed and exchanged and debated, it's OK.

Well to be able tell what time period era and region is kind of... Difficult. I know that Christianity didn't appear on the scene until after the Roman Empire fell apart. Also noting the regional construct style and names for the different cities also remind me of the R.E... Sealing the deal with the Redguards hailing in from Northern Africa.

Alchemical-wise, even today using alchemy is rather... Primative... Or CAN be I don't know exactly, but I remember chemistry class. Still only Vials and Tubes right?

The dungeons were well abandoned and claimed by bandits by then... Most show signs of deterioration so we can pretty much guess the Iron and Steel weren't NEW materials...
So...
Its difficult to pinpoint... The presence of attire suggest the Golden Age... But that's post R.E.