Can anyone explain to me why there are Hostile Ghost under every chapel? What's this perversion for, to detour TES church attendance? Why no sermons?


What's the breakdown of the religious system... Polygamy of course but why didn't they go Mythological. Why is the religous presence overly eccentric with the pagan symbols and daedric worship? Why do I get that Masonic era vibe from the contructs and things the like? Or is it Gothic? What exactly is going on in Cyrodil? Is this religous practice EVERYWHERE (Akivir?) Or what? Anything based on anything we may be familiar with?


Just add input...mention what you know... I'll piece something together by listening to you guys...

;)

To stop body-snatchers and other profaners of the dead. And to keep people out who don't belong, aka anyone but the chapel staff. The Undercrofts are not a place where regular worshippers off the street should be. It would be like you walking into your local morgue to stare at and poke the stiffs.


Outside-of-game limitations.

the word your looking for is not POLYGAMY, but polytheism.

Churches in oblivion are Gothic styled.

The ghosts also aren't a perversion to them. Loosen up your standards.


First off, Polytheism isn't dead in the real world, so I don't understand why you think it'd be dead in tes. Secondly, all the et'ada are real beings in tes (aedra and daedra) so...yeah.

Wow, so people who die report in to the Chapel Priest for security duty? Or do they come all the way from their dungeons to submit an application?



And another thing, about these dieties... Its plainly found in Literature that the Divines are only mortal men... The auther in the Imperial City said herself, that one of the kings or emperors had himself proclaimed a Divine. And in some other book, it stated, that some diety would return to morrowind somewhere with his special ring on and replace the corrupt dieties who overthrew him...


What am I missing? Are these God's or Mortals? Is their worship simply reverence of some hero, or actual submittance to...some... Principle they heard from some Prophet who claims they saw something.


Is this to inform us about how some kingdoms actually force religion on their people? (Like Shadrak Meeshak and Ebindigo) or is it more like putting emphasis on religions' points of origin... Something we have no clueabout being we haven't started any of our own.


What could the Nine Divines be related to? Talos being declared Zues? Shortly after being met with resistance and resentment being that he was NEWBIE?!


Refer me....


;)

http://www.imperial-library.info/nine_divines/ can help you in regards to Aedra. Aedra being Aldmeris for 'ancestor'. They are not mortal (although apparently Arkay was, and so was Talos). The UESP says:

"The Aedra are original beings that arose from the interplay of Anu and Padomay. They are regarded as the counterparts and opposites of the Daedra, but the distinction originated after their birth, during the creation of the Mundus. The Anuic (Aedric) beings played a leading role in the creation of Mundus, causing them to commonly be considered the creators of the mortal world. Aedra translated into Aldmeris means "Our stronger, better, ancestors."

Eight of the Aedra are worshipped as the Eight Divines, namely Akatosh, Dibella, Arkay, Zenithar, Stendarr, Mara, Kynareth, and Julianos (with the addition of Talos, the human god-hero Tiber Septim, they have become the Nine Divines). These eight represent those who sacrificed parts of themselves to become the founders of Nirn. Other minor spirits disappeared into the stablilizing elements known as the Earthbones, or degenerated into mortal life. Since that act at Convention, the identities of the Aedra have changed greatly and become subject to disruption and even modification by the actions of mortals. "

As for who worships what, see http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties_of_Faith_in_the_Empire

Your lack of faith is disturbing.... :force chokes:

Read http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/varietiesoffaith.shtml





You've gotten yourself horribly confused about the Nerevarine prophecy.


edit: an important thing to note is That the tes world is not like the earth and the Universe. Nirn isn't a clump of Baryonic matter floating in space like earth is. It's a realm in which the metaphysical is very much the reality of the world.

Spirits return to Nirn for a vast variety of reasons. Some are there against their will. Others, as Morrowind's ancestor-worship would indicate, return out of a sense of duty or protection to guard the tombs of their family or clan. It's more than likely that the ones out in dungeons are those either bound against their will or otherwise angered.


No and no and no. The divines are the Aedra, who are not mortal. The Aedra created the world and gave stability to the world. You have Tiber Septim and potentially Arkay who don't quite fit that mold, but while I don't recall Arkay's explanation, Tiber both entaniomorphed with a demigod and mantled Shor/Lorkhan, the god whose heart is the heart of the world. Hence Talos was born, mortal no longer. Just like the events of the Shivering Isles. For all intents and purposes, they are indeed gods. The Nerevarine is a 1st Era hero reincarnated by the will of Daedra Lord Azura to combat atone for the sin of the three Living Gods, ALMSIVI, in Morrowind. I'd say more regarding ALMSIVI, but the questions you pose about the subject makes me believe you haven't started or finished the Morrowind MQ, and I don't want to spoil it for you.


Gods. Their worship is based on their various spins on the http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml.


It is only allegory if you make it allegory. The in-game religions themselves are not actively tyring to make a point about religiosity IRL. The Cyrodiilic religion in-game is not forced on people. They can believe whatever they care to. You're going to get a lot of pressure from Nine-Divine-enthusiasts like Alessia Ottus, but it still remains that you can believe what you want.


There are certainly a lot of Greek or Roman influences regarding the Daedra. Not so sure about the Aedra, but then I haven't really considered making a comparison before. My Greek pantheon is a bit rusty.

Also,

This is insanely important to note.

EDIT: Clarification.

I thought the Eight Divines were actually the Marukhati Selectives?

If I've correctly understood the theory that puts that forth, only in Cyrodiil (http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/complete_dragonbroke.shtml), and only for the 1,008 years of the Dragon Break until the 8 stars fell.

First I wondered why to even feel safe in the Chapels....since the church's had Hostile Spirits keeping me from seeing the inner chambers. But I guess I learned from the Da Vinci Code that getting caught in the wrong chamber, can get you shot. Lol

I'm really iffy about what I read and venture into. Just my upbring, you guys either live on the edge devoting time to this, or.... U guys found some element to this stuff u sorta trust in.

So it sounds as if there IS no real life reference points I could find! to see the structure of the religion... Like at Barnes and Nobles...


What's a religion, existant to us.... to research, which could give me a better picture of this spectrum in WHOLE. Where does their faith lie? You say only the elves were restrained to the mortal plane well, where does the general populus believe their going?...... MEAVEN?
Are their god's even ACTIVE? In a future game will I see one? This is nothing like I pictured it could be pieced together?

what are you talking about?

You see the avatar of Akatosh at the end of Oblivion. You meet several avatars of the aedra in Morrowind. You also get to receive quests from all the daedra princes at one point or another in the tes series.

based on what he posted I dont even think he is that far in the game since just by playing half his questions would be answered which is why i'm confused

That's cool...

Nah I've beaten the game twice or so. But I bought another copy or two for information gathering. Folklore seems to expand from games to movies to books. Pretty much the same stuff if you haven't heard...

So I'm here to research. Only I play the hardest difficulty... (no magic or potions or fast travel or enchanments)... Yeah, of course I'm not that far!


Hard to close an oblivion gate without using magic yourself ya know...which I figure blurs the line between who's the good guy... And whose the bad guy...

But I'm learning to cherish every friendly NPC and hear them out when they talk.... And I'm just wondering why so much time was poured into a spiritual tes...Unless like the other aspects it branched out. Or it was relevent in some sort of fashion to our lives.... Cause we all know the battle system is HELL to deal with. Lol. So I'm tryna just BE there...


But yeah like I said I couldn't relax in the church cause I wanted to find some books and not go to jail or get killed for downstairs. I used to go to a templ style church, all the religions shared the temple so... I spent time in chambers for other religions and seeing the robes and things I've never known about. Some of them were dark and gloomy but I felt safe because God was with me. However... My childhood urges resurfacing in CYRODIIL temples can get me pasted... Against the wall! By a demon...

So...

It just seems wierd you guys can't put a finger on the basic elements of TES like Politics or Religion...yet you know so much more than me. No offense...


But I ask again.. Just in case someone wants to try...U see the fundamentals and beliefs of christianity...Heaven or Hell

Bhuddism has Reincarnation and finding... Umm.... That state of.... Whatever you call it. They have aura reading...


Satanic people just... want to go to hell... And I'm guessing by the majority of you guys avatars you guys can relate? Not cool but anyway...


Mythology has the underworld of the dead... But I'm guessing they can go to... Some kinda paradise... Also
Believing in the planets having characteristics... BTW how did they worship planets with representations of Dieties... way back then when there weren't even telescopes??


Here though... In the home of folklore (it would seem...) LOOK I found elves!... People!... Dwemer!... Dragons!.... A couple I didn't know existed like argonians! Orcs hung in there and made the cut..

But...They kinda share this...religion... Polytheism... Aedra and Deadra... Half the people love the deadra more than the aedra. No speak of heaven or hell.

And I just wanted to put a finger on their beliefs... I guess I can find out in the game if you guys say so... But I'm quite sure the knowledge for this stuff can be found in other places you know?

WTF? Your thoughts are all over the place. Maybe this needs to be spelled out: TES isn't Earth, it isn't based on specific people groups or religions on Earth. It might bear some similarities, but only as a synthesis of the developer's own imagination with dozens of concepts/themes found through out various mythologies from around the world. The Nine Divines aren't Christian/catholic/whatever. In fact, they don't even get along most of the time, they aren't virtuous and morally pristine, they aren't magnanimous and benevolent forces that order people to form 'churches' and be good to the poor. They are Aedra, spirits who decided to give up some of their power to create the Mundus (Nirn). They seem to take an interest in their creation to some extent, just as the Daedra also take an interest in the Mundus. They are beings of a different power - not necessarily "Gods" (omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent).

Unfortunately, the portrayal of the Aedra in TESIV is not consistent with the portrayal in previous games and in-game lore.

EDIT: in the TES Universe, there is no "heaven," there is no "hell" in the sense of after-life places of punishment and reward. There is no "underworld" there is no 3rd party "judge" of a person's deeds. This has nothing to do with real world religions, particularly the monotheistic ones. Leave your preconceptions at the door, and TES will make more sense.

This isn't folklore.

i cant tell if you are joking or not but:

http://www.imperial-library.info/book_daedra/
http://www.imperial-library.info/nine_divines/



pay attention to the creation myth



another thing: don't look at this from a christian perspective

Did you seriously just assume we could relate to satanists?

Shed thy earthly viewpoint, and enter Nirn like a newborn child, clothed in not a shed of presumption nor assumption. The path of the parallel between a place of the metaphysical and a place of the purely physical shall get you nowhere.

"Its not earth"....

"No precedents"....

Yeah...

But dang near ever FLOWER on TES' alchemy charts in the game, get referenced in books everywhere.

Enough to tweak my curiosity anyway. Thrust me back into Cyrodiil... And these, elder races, their stories are oooold man. Literally like a history lesson in fantasy...

But ok whatever... I guess I have enough time on my hands... Dueces

look, just because the devs aren't creative enough to come up with a completely new and alien set of organisms for every game doesn't mean that you should draw comparisons between christian theology, earth mythology, and the like and the gods of TES. It just leaves you confused.

Oh TESIV, what have you done?! :shakehead:

OP, I'd suggest playing TESIII instead. Just wait 'till you see your first Guar.

I'm having a bit of trouble following the flow of thought here. ZenithSpirit could you please try to put more substance into your writing? The questions you ask suggest you missed or misunderstood the basics, but there isn't enough to hook in at.

So to answer in general, besides the Knights of the Nine plugin, the game Oblivion doesn't go in-depth with the Nine Divines. The most important books, Faith in the Empire and the Monomyth have already been linked.

In Cyrodiil there is supposed to be a myriad of cults for various aspects of each divine, not a single temple for one in each different city. If you want to compare it to anything, think Roman Polytheism or the Byzantine veneration of Saints, or if you like, think gloss magazines, there is one for any problem. Currently there is no official state religion, though the Emperors are supposedly all members of the Temple of One.

---

Owh btw. About the don't compare, it can be done just fine for the abstract concepts.

Well, this thread got rather.... Interesting.

omg look at your avatar!you're just askin for hell!

:lol: This Crassius mask is coming off after Saturday night. And I will be very pleased; it's getting rather freaky to look at even for me. My poor avatar's probably sweating under it.


... I'm not following you here, at all. Are you talking from a completely in-character perspective? Or are you talking about Cyrodiil's religiosity invoking real-world memories?

What do you mean, we can't put a finger on the basic elements of TES? We've presented you with pretty thorough information so far.


Buddhism as both a philosophy and a religion is aimed at Nirvana.
Satanism is more of a philosophical rebellion from societal-established norms than an actual religion.
But that's not really the point of the thread. And what's with the "you guys can relate" to going to hell?


This particular mythology has no underworld. And they can perceive planets the same way that you or I can perceive them - with the naked eye. You don't need a telescope to do that. Not that it really matters, since, considering they can build a fully-functional Orrery, they can probably manage a telescope. The phrase "way back then" is irrelevant; Nirn does not exist in the same universe as the real world and therefore is not capable of making direct correlations such as timeframes.



Lots of speak about polytheism because that's what is metaphysically present in the world. In our world, it is impossible to "prove" deities to be true. In TES, the existence of deities is tangible. You mentioned earlier them, "believing in the plants having characteristics." In TES, it's more along the lines of observing that the planets have characteristics. No speak about heaven and hell because such concepts don't exist within Tamriel. Nor do such concepts such as karma or dharma, or any other moral arbitration. Not to say that the various faiths don't extol various positions of virtue. http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/ten_commands.shtml comes to mind for the Nine, and the http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lives_saints.shtml, http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/homilies_alm.shtml, and http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/saryonis_manuscript.shtml come to mind for ALMSIVI.

However, when you actually die (unbeknownst to almost all of Tamriel), your soul goes through a giant recycling process called the Dreamsleeve. Your sense of identity is slowly dissolved from it, which arguably results in some kind of hallucinogenic afterlife vision for you, and then the soul as a blank slate is tossed back to Nirn. If I remember correctly, it's a pretty Socratic view of how things work, at least in the reused blank-state soul department. There's also the potential that Lunar Currency will kick in, and you will avoid the Dreamsleeve and instead be bound to whomever you were most aligned to in life, whether that be Aedra or Daedra.

What avatars of the nine appeared in Morrowwind besides Talos at the end of the MQ?

Not questioning that they're there, just wondering who else I should look for.