I was slightly indifferent at first but the more I think about it the dumber it seems. Your attributes are basically what defines you as a person, and much more important than any skills, especially the rather artificial ones Bethesda picked. For example someone with a lot of hitting power will hurt you whether he hits you with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon or his fists. I'm assuming in Skyrim if you never touched one-handed and maxed two-handed the damage difference would be extreme, where's the sense in that?(note the skill isn't based on what TYPE of weapon it is but rather how many hands you hold it with) A tough guy that usually wears light armour puts on some plate and dies in one hit? You ever notice anybody good at a sport can play most similar sports well and students who do well in a few subject most likely don't get F's in the rest?

Without attributes everyone are basically clones who have practiced different things. Is that fun to roleplay? You can't be smart strong or pretty, you just get better at holding things with two hands. Perks are not a substitute at all, they are skill specific. I'd rather lose skills than atttributes and have more skill-like attributes that work across many things that you do, something like: power, speed, accuracy, reflexes, IQ, EQ things that make people individuals.

Basically if you can be incredibly good at something yet completely svck at another that involves similar mechanics it's ridiculous. That's what will happen without attributes and I don't even know if something such at the core of the game can be modded in.

wheres thread one

and btw read all the other topics if you wanna know why and how it affects

Basically if you can be incredibly good at something yet completely svck at another that involves similar mechanics it's ridiculous. That's what will happen without attributes and I don't even know if something such at the core of the game can be modded in.

are you saying that if im incredibly good at swords it doesnt make sense that i am lesser at axe or that im good at shooting fireballs but im horrible at shooting light

I hate this removal yet I don't see option for my hate vote so I didn't vote (just really hate this topic) :rofl:

And you forgot ecstatic, too.

I say this in all these threads, ain't gonna stop now :
What is the difference in Oblivion between a brutal Orsimer swordsman who can cut through armour and break your arm with the force of his blows, and a skilled Dunmer swordsman, weaker but with all the fancy moves, who can spot a weakness in your defenses and capitalise on it ? None. The Dunmer can become as strong as the Orc, the Orc can become as skilled as the Dunmer, in OB they get the same fancy moves.
Now what is the difference in Skyrim between an Orc with 100 in blade and 3 ranks of extra damage perks, and a Dunmer who has 100 blade skill, no extra base damage, but has three ranks of extra critical chance, and any fancy disarm or paralyse moves? There aren't the numbers to say the Orc is stronger, the Dunmer is more agile and dextrous, but they will be different in terms of effects the game recognises.

I like this new change.
It will stop me from creating new characters every 2-5 hours of my gameplay. Which will then help guide me to actually play the game instead of counting numbers.

I agree, 100%, but there are different perspectives to this. On the one hand, attributes are tedious to choose and kind of get in the way of being exactly who you want to be, where as taking them out would give you more freedom in this regard. But does it really? As you've said, attributes kind of define who someone is at the core. I mean, so far, you can no longer determine who is really strong, who is really fast, who is really agile, who has a high personality, who does this and who does that -- what it successfully creates is every character doing and being able to do the same basic thing.

I see a ton of issues being caused by the removal of attributes. What about weight allowance? Is everyone going to be able to carry around 300lbs and is it static at that number? What about agility, and the removal of agility skills like athletic and acrobatics? Will everyone just jump the same height, as well as Khajiits? Does everyone run at the same speed, even Argonians? How about intelligence? Everyone start with the same magicka? It goes on and on and, frankly, I think it detracts a lot away from the RPG core of the game. Yeah, "be whoever you want, DO whatever you want"? Not really, at least that's what it seems like.

As I've said in other threads, I don't know how this game can possibly function without this core gameplay mechanic. It's numbers, and it's an old mechanic, but it actually works well. I mean, there's that saying "don't fix what ain't broke". I think that may apply here. Don't get me wrong, I'll probably still love Skyrim... but I think it is less of an RPG because of this, simply because attributes really do define who you are at the core.

"Nobody is born equal but everyone should all have equal rights."

I prefer the skill tree system over the attribute system. Being excellent at everything because I spammed skills felt like it lacked immersion in the long run.

I am not happy about it at all.
The only reason it needed to be removed was that we now have even less skills than Oblivion, which already had too few.
With only 18 skills an attribute system would suffer from the same flaws as with only 21 skills, only more so.

What I miss in TES is a plethora of skills so I can make oodles of distinct and seperate characters.
Because replayability is the most important thing in a game for me.

Only 18 skills does not offer that by a long shot.

Oh well, we will see.

I didn't like the race for attribute bonus, but I don't like no attributes at all either. I'd have preferred many attributes and much more skills.

Between the lack of spellmaking and the consolidation of skills, I would recommend you not buy the game so that you stop supporting the "dumbing down" of games in general.

I am very open-minded about the change.
I would prefer if they had fixed the flawed system from MW and OB, but I rather have the new system than the broken one.

As I have said a million times already:
Ill rent the game and if I like it enough Ill buy it.

Its still Elder Scrolls we are talking about here, and Daggerfall + Morrowind gave them enough credit in my eyes to disregard the horreur that was Oblivion and give Skyrim a try.

I like this logic.

Also, on a personal note, I am happy they removed attributes because I always felt Elder Scrolls post-Daggerfall had the absolute worst system of stat management. It insisted on unnesecary micromanagement and discouraged major skills of the same attribute. Skyrim's system is simply more intuitive and less focus on ridiculous "efficient" leveling.

That, though, is a problem with the oblivion attribute system itself, and not with all attribute systems.


OP, thanks for continueing my thread, by the way

I'm not actually praising Oblivion and haven't played it in forever, but your comparison just highlights my point about Skyrim. The "Orsimer" is not skilled but he can swing his sword very hard. I believe weapon damage in determined by strength in Oblivion? So he wouldn't need to have a high (longblade?) skill nor have those unlockable moves(completely forgot about those)

I'm actually all for perks, but not as a replacement for attributes. And having 3 ranks of "extra damage" just jump in all of a sudden seems very jarring to me, it should be gradual ongoing progress.

Definitely open-minded. Assuming Bethesda judge it right, there's every chance that the functions of the attributes we used to have will still be covered by the new 3 attributes and the perk system. There will still be no two characters the same, and if you think all characters will have the same encumbrance/same melee damage output because the explicit Strength attribute isn't visible any more, then frankly you're a buffoon.

Cool. I suppose you play on a console where rentals are more possible.

I think I'm only basing my comment on like 2 days of comments. Sorry for making it 1 million and 1.

I always wanted to play an intelligent warrior who couldn't cast spells. I never could because the moment I chose to raise my intelligence my Magika also went up. Why did it go up? I was more intelligent, not more magical. In fact I can't think of a single time any attribute was used in a functional way in the entire previous two games.

I know I am now going to get hit with, well improve it don't remove it. Improving it would have meant an entire re-write of the way the ElderScroll games has always handled skills. Elder Scroll games have always been about skills and not attributes. A person with high sword/ one handed skill but a low strength always did more damage than high strength low skill.

The attributes did nothing that skills and perks couldn't do by themselves. Can people complaining about them honestly say they really paid any attention to them except when they leveled up? Did you ever go into a conversation and decide "my charcter only has 52 Intelligence, therefore he wouldn't ask that sort of intelligent question"? When did the complainers ever actually use the attributes? Because the game never did!

1. Yes, that problem is not fixed by just removing the attributes. Now you can play a warrior. Not a strong, intelligent, or lucky warrior. Just a warrior.

2. Dont compare skyrim to oblivion. Why dont you guys stop doing that? Attribute system doesnt mean ATTRIBUTE SYSTEM LIKE WE HAD IT IN OBLIVION, maybe we could get a better system than just removing it.

I personally love the change. It allows the player to decide what to increase (Skills and magic, health or endurance). It also allows the player direct access to improving their core stats (magic, health, and endurance). Yes it causes a few problems (like encumbrance) but it allows his character to be very unique to how the player wants it.

It is better. Now you don't have attributes. You have 18 distinct skill trees. 1000 times better and more complicated IMO.

The moment the word 'Removing' is used we have to assume we are talking about from the previous incarnation. In this case every previous incarnation was poorly handled. If asked why haven't the included attributes, then maybe you would get a different answer. Also what are we meant to do, as I pointed out a different system would take the game away from a skill based RPG to an attribute based RPG. The ES games have always been more focused on skills than attributes. To by removing them they are actually staying truer to the franchise than by changing the way they work.

Attributes become very repetitious after the use of many levels. There is no purpose for the majority of the ones found in RPG, as one effects the same thing as another. There isn't really any consequence for choosing the wrong attributes either, unless you can decrease them to increase others. Perks are much more meaningful than attributes, and am glad Bethesda has instead implemented sophisticated perk trees.

We have to assume that 'not removed' would be 'a rpg game with attributes', not that it means 'its the same like in oblivion'