Respectfully, I still think the New Man is a reference to the future fate of all mortals, not connected to the Dwemer. The New Man probably hasn't been achieved yet, despite the delusions of Mankar Camoran.

Very interesting. But would the list be like before the Dwemer created it?

The Numidium. The Endeavor. The Prolix Tower. CHIM. The Enantiomorph. The Scarab that Transforms into the New Man.

:spotted owl:

Wait. What? Why would the list be before the Dwemer; it's the 'Loveletter from the Fifth Era, the Dwemer left during the First... I think you've genuinely lost me as to what you're saying...

Talos became Talos after Daggerfall; I feel it refers more to the attempt made by the Dwemer.

The whole Mankar idea is intriguing me, but as stated, I haven't played Oblivion all the way through and I'm debating whether or not to spoil the game for myself in the search for knowledge.

Ah, you're right. Forgot about that.

In that case, the Scarab That Tranforms into the New Man is probably something that hasn't happened yet. Or if it has, we haven't heard about it.

Damn.

How is it not Lorkhan/Shezzar?

Well, I've already expressed that the Scarab is Shor.

...I personally doubt that the writer of the Loveletter would record the first attempt at reaching the state-process of CHIM. But of course, that's just my opinion.

Since my last post was interpreted somewhat too statistically, I decided to add a little clarification. My point is that in the Commentaries, Mankar advocates a kind of Freedom that is in no way inferior to that which CHIM and other (presumably similar) processes can offer. A few excerpts:

"Palace, hut, or cave, you have left all the fog worlds of conception behind."
"Endlessly it shall form and reform around you, deeds as entities, all-systems only an hour before they bloom to zero sums (...)"
"The Tower touches all the mantles of Heaven, brother-noviates, and by its apex one can be as he will."
"He that enters Paradise enters his own Mother."
"There is no dominion save free will!"

If you ask me, Mankar should be read somewhat less as a crackpot, and somewhat more as a herald.


***

On a side note: the quote is

You in the Fourth Era have already witnessed many of the attempts at reaching the final subgradient of all AE, that state that exists beyond mortal death. The Numidium. The Endeavor. The Prolix Tower. CHIM. The Enantiomorph. The Scarab that Transforms into the New Man.

Though the contrary interpretation would make slightly more sense, these two phrases do not necessarily imply that all of the attempts listed are also instances that we, in the Fourth Era, have already witnessed.

Which is rather telling, if you think about it. Talos is not Tiber Septim.

I can't accept that Mankar Camoran was on the right path, though. If we follow the old proverb that "by their fruits you will know them," what should we think about the "Paradise" that Mankar created?

That it's a place of sadism and a prison. Isn't this a false freedom?

Heaven knows the Mankar of the Commentaries is not the Mankar of Oblivion.

Good point. Thanks, Adanorcil.

Reading your comments, I take it something must have happened between the writing of the Commentaries and the OC that made him descend into malevolent douchebaggery?

Kinda reminds me of the Nu-Hatta comment about the Morrowind ending being orchestrated by Dagonites...

It's complete freedom for Mankar, at the expense of everyone else's freedom. One person's absolute freedom may end up as oppression of another person. Freedom is not a automatically good thing for everyone. And it's Mankar's Paradise, not universal Paradise. I think you probably made the same mistake as Mankar's followers



Maybe the same thing that happened between Mannimarco's ascendence, to his hiding in caves randomly killing people as in Oblivion.

Yeah, Todd Howard was in such a hurry he didn't even proofread.

I like how Ted Peterson set that up in Loranna's RP, even though it's not canon. During the War of the Wormgod, Mannimarco is portrayed as extremely powerful; complete with his own necropolis, an army of undead, and control over dragons. Yet in the end Sheogorath, since he's a Daedra Prince, crushes him without breaking a sweat; playfully turning Mannimarco into a duplicate of the Banker temporarily as well.

The defeat of Mannimarco and his legions helps explain why he's so reduced in power when the player faces him in "Oblivion". Not canon, but it works for me.

Nevermind Sheogorath, having all your schemes for godhood end in you being the puppet avatar of an inanimate lunar object is enough to grind you down.

Ooh, now that's interesting. Not sure if I like the whole 'deus ex machina' feel that it has though...

Deus ex machina? Quod Mannomarco deus est...

That's true, but it made sense to me at the time. If Mannimarco had succeeded in turning Tamriel into a kingdom of the dead, Sheogorath and other Daedra would lose their mortal "toys".

Wouldn't Arkay always undergo some mind[censored] if that happened?

Or just get very bored.

Id feel like the WORLD would go through some mind[censored] if that happened.

While what Saxbass said may very well be true, but to play the devils advocate I will add:
You're thinking too mortal. M was trying to make his people understand what they really were and were capable off - what seems to us (and the followers) as torture and sadism is his attempts to do so. We do not understand it, because we fear such things, and, most importantly, we fear death. Mankar's followers, however, had no reason to fear neither the torture, the pain, or death. They could not die. If they died, they were brought back to Paradise and lived again. Fear, pain, and horror, were now to them nothing more than hollow concepts - but they still clinged to them with their mortal minds. Had they embraced Mankar's "gifts", they would have become... well, pretty impressive.
One might even go to lengths and say that the line between them and "true" Daedra would have been blurred out.

But, as I said, they were too"weak" to understand this. They couldn't stretch their imagination far enough to look it from any other standpoint than their own, mortal one (little wonder, by the way), and so, they experienced it as a neverending torture.

The only two persons who seemed to have realised what the Paradise was really about seemed to be Mancar's own children, because, if I'm not mistaken, don't they automatically resurrect every time you kill them, in the final battle?
One might only wonder what he did to make them understand.

The Scarab that Transforms into the New Man always reminds me of the http://www.imperial-library.info/tsorg/part03.shtml(scroll a ways down) from Redguard. MK did design the thing.

Despite that connection, I would guess it is something we haven't seen yet. Mankar seemed to be getting there, based on his writings, but I don't quite think he succeeded.